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paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 840
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 05:18 pm: | 
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READER FEEDBACK
Does bad service give customers the right to withhold a mandatory tip?
A couple, part of a group of 8, got arrested for refusing to pay a $16 gratuity at a Bethlehem pub.
College students arrested for not paying tip
By Peter Mucha
Inquirer Staff Writer
It was an evening out that college students Leslie Pope and John Wagner will long remember.
Not only did they get what they called lousy service, they got handcuffed and arrested.
All over a $16.35 tip.
They were with a half-dozen friends at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem last month, so the establishment tacked what it called a mandatory 18 percent gratuity onto the bill of about $73, according to reports.
Pope and Wagner refused to pay.
"You can't give us terrible, terrible service and expect a tip," said Pope, a 22-year-old Moravian College senior who's a Pottsville native, according to the Lehigh Valley Express-Times.
They had to find their own napkins and cutlery while their waitress caught a smoke, had to ask the bar for soda refills, and had to wait over an hour for salad and wings, they told NBC10.
The pub, which was very busy that night, took the $73, but then called the cops, who treated the matter as a theft.
The menu clearly states, "18 percent gratuity added to check of parties of 6 of more," and a similar message is printed on receipts, a pub employee said this morning.
A court date is scheduled for next month.
What would they do if it happened again? a reporter asked.
"Honestly, probably gonna pay the tip anyway," said Pope, prompting Wagner, 24, a Lehigh University grad student, to laugh. |
brianguy
New member
Username: brianguy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 07:25 pm: |
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Good for them for standing up. The manager should have done something for them, like waive the 5% mandatory service charge which was in addition to the 18%. I think some servers take it easy with a group and cruise, though most don't. Certainly she did. Around an hour for salads? Get their own drinks, napkins and silverware? Taking smoke breaks in the middle of dinner, before checking on them? C'mon. I know people do this but with a group it's inexcusable. Someone else would at least have to cover.
Civil matter, clearly not "theft". Judge would likely throw out on that basis. We'll see. |
vision
New member
Username: vision
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2008
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 03:00 pm: |
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Federal laws state that whether a tip is given and it's amount are matters determined solely by the customer. CFR 531.52
Tips have been defined under federal law as a amount presented by a customer in recognition of some service performed for him.
Federal regulations go one to state that a tip is to be distinguished from payment of a charge, if any, made for the service.
Since the establishment listed the charge as a 18% gratuity, the couple shouldn't have been obligated to pay it. Federal regulations clearly explain that whether a tip is given is a matter determine solely by the customer. Likewise, federal regulations clearly indicate that the amount should not be dictated by anyone other than the customer.
What gets me is that while federal regulations state that tips are to be distinquished from a charge, if any is made for the service, restaurants across our country refuse to distinguish that their charges do not represent tips. In fact most restaurants who are adding a charge to the customer's bill intentionally want customers to believe that they are giving a tip when they pay the charge.
It is my belief that many restaurants across this country simply want to dissuade customers from tipping only the waiter like most have done for years. When customers choose only to tip the waiter, restaurants are limited to paying low wages to only the waiters who earn additional income from tips. When a restaurant charges customers a fee for gratuities, they are able to distribute the tips to all their employees and thus can save greatly on staffing costs by paying all their employees lower hourly wages.
The truth of the matter is, mandated gratuities are simply an attempt on the part of restaurants to benefit themselves to the billions of dollars patrons are tipping each year. Rather than allowing all this money to go into the pockets of their waitstaff, business want to be able to utilize the money to reduce their staffing costs.
When no mandatory gratuity is in place, customers tent to tip only a few select workers who provide the most service to them. However, when a restaurant imposes a mandatory gratuity on it's customers, the select few employees who would normally have been tipped are neglected and instead the restaurant is able to distribute the moneys to all their workers in an attempt to relieve themselves of paying these workers out of their own pocket.
In my opinion, mandatory gratuities are simply a means for restaurants to steal the tips that customers would normally give only a select few of their workers. Rather than a select few workers benefitting from the customer's tip, restaurants who implement a mandatory gratuity can strip those workers of what they would normally earn and utilize the funds to save themselves money. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3148
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 06:49 pm: |
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Awww George - that horse that you're beating is actually dead.
"Since the establishment listed the charge as a 18% gratuity, the couple shouldn't have been obligated to pay it. Federal regulations clearly explain that whether a tip is given is a matter determine solely by the customer. Likewise, federal regulations clearly indicate that the amount should not be dictated by anyone other than the customer".
Georgie, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. As you yourself have repeatedly pointed out, the Feds consider an "autograt" or any "mandatory gratuity" as listed on a menu a service charge, NOT a tip regardless of what it's called. Therefore, your statement is patently false.
If it's on the menu, and the table fulfills the conditions in which the autograt is applied, then yes, they *are* obligated to pay it. They have the right to leave if they don't like the conditions stated on the menu, just as they do if they find that the price of the burger is too high. You don't eat the burger and the refuse to pay because "the price is too high". Same with the autograt. Once you agree to the conditions as stated on the menu, you are contracturally obligated to pay. Obviously, you could sue after the fact for a breach based on failure to fulfill the service obligation that is implied when you accept the terms stated on the menu, but you are still obligated to pay.
I'll let the rest of your mindless chatter stand as written.
PS, how's the casino biz? Doing well, I hope. I've heard that things are rather sucky in Vegas at the moment. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 841
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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"you are contracturally obligated to pay". You have been drinking too much "Jack" telli my boy. Must be a slow night to bring you out? |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 310
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 01:50 pm: |
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The charges against the two people that refused to tip were dropped.
"Northampton County District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right and recommended to Bethlehem police that the charges against the couple be dropped, according to the Allentown Morning Call." |
brianguy
New member
Username: brianguy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 12:46 am: |
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figures. cops had really no justification in arresting IMHO. |
gbowen99
Intermediate Member
Username: gbowen99
Post Number: 517
Registered: 06-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 03:58 pm: |
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I would not pay the charge. In fact, I would have walked out to find a better bar if I saw the 18%, bs, charge. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3155
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 07:47 pm: |
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I'm sure that that would have been a win/win for everybody.
However, that assumes that you could gather 5 friends to go out with you... |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 844
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 10:42 am: |
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Uuuuuuuuuu that was nasty tellie. |
bunneh
New member
Username: bunneh
Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 04:42 pm: |
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I've read about this. I don't agree with those kids getting arrested. I like auto-grats because most of the time the 18% is the kind of service I receive.
I don't have an aneurysm over it. If the service I get is better than 18% then I just leave more (it's not a good idea to expect that from anyone else who wasn't in the biz). If I truly got horrible service and I got auto-grated, I would speak to a manager. I would also expect that manager to adjust the charge or I wouldn't be back.
I used to only have only one reason to not like auto-grat. Auto-grat screws any server worth his or her salt. Now folks have to worry about getting arrested for suffering crap service. |
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