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dutchroll
New member
Username: dutchroll
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 03:59 pm: | 
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Gidday from an Aussie.
Firstly let me say that I'm kinda relieved that there are quite a few different opinions on who & how much to tip. I'm going to be living here for a year and although I'm familiar with the tipping culture in the US having done many short visits, it gets a bit daunting at times. I'm used to something which costs $25 costing........$25. Weird eh? 
Being paid award wages back home of course, we don't have a tipping culture. Money left on a bar Down Under will still be there the next day, if someone else doesn't consider it their lucky night before then.
I do have a couple of issues though (no offence intended to anyone) and was interested in the debate:
"Still tipping 10% for bad service". I've read & heard this a few times and honestly, it made me want to stop the world and get off. Bad service may as well be no service at all, IMHO. All service should at least be "average" and still paying someone extra for crap service resulting in a really bad night just doesn't make any sense to me. Do many Americans agree with this?
"Tip the fast food guy". Sorry. But I just laughed at this one. Packing the big mac & fries into that bag and handing it over the counter was so nicely done, I'm gonna pay you extra.
"Tip the hairdresser". Seriously? I thought their job was to competently cut your hair as you requested. Just like a tailor is supposed to competently sew the hem to the right length. You'd give him extra money if it actually was? I've only just set up an apartment and haven't needed one yet. Do you really tip a hairdresser/barber?
Once again, no offence to anyone, but there surely must be things you don't tip for, or are all prices listed anywhere just ultimately meaningless?
Cheers!
(Message edited by dutchroll on August 03, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 517
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 09:54 pm: |
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dutchroll said
"Still tipping 10% for bad service". I've read & heard this a few times and honestly, it made me want to stop the world and get off. Bad service may as well be no service at all, IMHO.
Neecey said;
You know what this is a good point. Bad service may as well be no service at all. This is what sticks with me whenever this debate goes on. I mean I've heard the whole 10% is a serious message but it still entails parting with some sort of monetary amount beyond the obligated total of the meal. Trying to figure out what wasn't so bad in order to justify any sort of tip just rubs me the wrong way IMHO.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1382
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 10:36 am: |
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Basically it comes down to opinion on what is bad service. No matter what the service is, Paid-up still pays 10%, so what would be discussion on that?
But going back to bad/poor service. In my experience, bad service is a server not being friendly, offering suggestions and slow pace of service in a type of restaurant where the pace is somewhat steady. I don't like food stacking up, ie: I get my salad and 3 minutes later I get my entree.
In this example the tip would diminish. I'm not sure if things down under is so black and white, but unless I'm not getting ANY service, why would I not leave a tip for someone who at least took care of me?
If we lived by your standards, I would be getting no tips because I couldn't refill a coke in an undisclosed time? Food didn't come out in 10 minutes, but everything else was perfect, I would get no tip? Lord's side of ketchup, tartar sauce, etc wasn't brought out with the meal = 0.00 tip? A bit harsh, don't you think?
What if the restaurant is short staffed? Not the customer's fault, but how would this be the server's fault? Stiff the server because 100 people decided to show up and the manager was too stupid to schedule enough people on game night?
Human nature allows us to forgive mistakes and accept that some people aren't perfect. In a world where people are struggling to make a living, don't be so hard on the server who at least is trying their hardest to make you forget the outside troubles we all face.
Fast Food - I'm not sure who argued this point, but no server is going to agree with tipping someone at McDonalds.
Hairdressing - I tip. It's a service and it's not alot. I can get a haircut for 13 bucks and I throw 2-3 bucks for the tip. Some of the more fancy places where it's costing 100+ dollars to color, cut, etc. I can see tipping, but I don't have the experience, nor the desire to spend that kind of money on my hair. Maybe if I was in a movie.
No offence taken. Everyone is open to their opinion. It's always welcomed. At least with me.
Neecey93 - Point taken, but please define what is bad service that would equal no service. Forgetting to refill your beverage and spitting in your food are pretty different levels of service, wouldn't you say? |
dutchroll
New member
Username: dutchroll
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 08:49 pm: |
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Yeah I can see your point regarding things possibly not being the server's fault. However if the server was terrible on all counts, well......maybe zero tip?
In Australia you're not "expected" to tip anywhere at anytime (and many people outright object to the practice), which is why it's hard for us to get used to it over here in the US. Service is expected to be reasonable for the price you pay for the meal. Totally different system, but nice and simple. However some people will "round-up" the bill by a few dollars (generally no more than 10%) if the experience was really good as a way of saying "thanks".
Interesting about the hairdresser providing a service therefore getting a tip. Do you tip the plumber? Electrician? Postman? Had a Safeway delivery the other day and he's not allowed to take a tip. The driver's bonus depends on favourable comments phoned through to their customer service line (which I duly did). |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 09:26 am: |
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In Australia you're not "expected" to tip anywhere at anytime (and many people outright object to the practice),
Not to be frank, but some places in the world, people get their hands cut off for stealing, but you don't see America or Australia or that matter doing that; although my example is extreme compared to what we're discussing...8p
Every country has customs and as a traveler, I would assume you would research the customs that are pertaining to that country before visiting. Things to say, actions to perform, words to use in greeting, etc. Money is another custom in whole different aspect. Tipping in some countries are forbidden, which I assume your not going to complain about; while some countries is part of our system, ie America. It's something alot of people who visit our country which leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Probably one of the reasons that American Servers have a problem waiting on them. Knowing that they are probably going to receive a poor tip and any communication barriers with language issues.
Sometimes we are surprised, which from what your telling me, you'd be one of the people servers would appreciate; but in most cases it's a disappointment.
I don't travel, so I can't speak from personal experience, however it is a fact that most other countries don't have the scale of restaurants America has. Thousands of restaurants available for not just travellers, but the people who live here. People who want to dine and pamper themselves with good food and drink. In our country, things tend to be faster. In other countries, people make it an all night thing. Pacing is much more casual and servers are getting paid by the restaurant, which usually serves only a handful of customers compared to the 400+ customers we served in one night on restaurant week.
Things are different and with these differences, a system was put in place. Could it work here? Maybe, but it change the system so drastically, that the outcome would impact the industry badly before it became good. Do thousands of restaurant employees and owners want to go through all this change just so customers don't have to figure 15%?
Probably not.
However if the server was terrible on all counts, well......maybe zero tip?
I won't argue that. If the service is that bad, most people complain to the manager or write a letter to the owner or corporate office. Unless the server knows he/she did a horrible job, he/she will just think you stiffed them.
Interesting about the hairdresser providing a service therefore getting a tip. Do you tip the plumber? Electrician? Postman? Had a Safeway delivery the other day and he's not allowed to take a tip. The driver's bonus depends on favourable comments phoned through to their customer service line (which I duly did).
*sigh*
Most jobs that are resulting in some sort of tip have to do with Travel and Luxury. Getting a haircut is defined as a luxury. Technically, you could get someone to cut your hair for free, so why don't you? Because you want your hair to look nice.
Now, go out and deliver your own mail. Can't? Why not? Because you don't have the authority or access to the mail system. It's a government service supplied to ALL people in America. Go ahead and rewire your house. Can't? Why not? Because you're not trained in that aspect, so your paying for a electrician to do it for you. I doubt he is working for 2.13 an hour, so I'm assuming you're not going to tip someone who is already charging you 2500.00 dollars to rewire the whole house. Maybe you would like to, I don't know.
Dining out - Luxury - Cook at home
Cab Driver - Travel - Drive yourself
Baggage Handler - Travel - Carry your own bags.
Spa - Luxury - Skip it.
Hairdresser - Luxury - See Above.
These are things you don't have to have in life. Anything you can't do on your own, places will pay them for doing it. Doctors, lawyers, pilots, dentists, nurses, police, plumbers, electricians, customer service, tellers, cashiers, stock brokers, car salesman, mechanics and I could go on are paid for services by the taxes we pay or by the money made from the product. People required for a job we cannot do on our own. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 518
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:43 am: |
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Voz said:
Neecey93 - Point taken, but please define what is bad service that would equal no service. Forgetting to refill your beverage and spitting in your food are pretty different levels of service, wouldn't you say?
Neecey said:
Well before all this added informtion about a servers trials and tribulations on the job I used to go out to eat and hope for a pleasant experience. I would go in order interact with the server and tip based on how pleasant or unpleasant the experience was as well as how knowledgable, professional the server was as well as their demeanor. That's all. No figuring the low wage, or the possible bad day the servers having. The crappy management or any back of the house issues. I also didn't give points for each correct thing because although the attitude needed work, I'm not allowed to be too harsh since there was SOME sort of service involved right? The semantics drive me nuts when in all actuality, the concept of a tip, to most, is usually based on receiving an overall pleasant and satisfying experience. Not paying for a partial experience. Piecing together some sort of tip based on minute details that the server managed to get right is a bit offensive. To me and my wallet.
As for hairdressers... what's their story? I'm not sure what their base wage is. Is it the same as servers? I was under the impression that these people earn a wage (I do tip them however I just never knew why).
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 05, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1389
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 11:20 am: |
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You and I are basically the same when it comes to the demeanor of the server being number one on the reason to tip. Part of being a server is selling yourself, as well as the food and wine. When people go out, they remember the atmosphere, the food and the service. Since a customer's interaction is with the server, it's more important to make it memorable.
Some people don't care about that. I can be nice as Mother Teresa, but if I forget your side of tartar sauce, BAM! No money for you! Different folks, different strokes.
Hairdresser, barbers, Great Clips, Style on Hollywood Blvd, all are different just as restaurants are. It's all depending on your desire and the person taking care of you. For some people, hair is their life. Important to have the right color, the right style, the right length. Going into a Great Clips would be in insult for some, while I'm just fine with it.
Since the level of service increases with the desire to have picture perfect hair, it only leaves me to believe that people are open to tipping the person that gets it right. Since we are in the communication age, people catch wind of how people are tipping their hairdresser and most people follow suit by tipping their barber. It's natural. |
droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 03:34 am: |
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I'm an American, and my wife and I were actually discussing this very subject after dinner last night, which is how I found this website and forum. We have been traveling Europe for the past few weeks now, and noticed that some countries don't require tipping (Greece, and now Croatia). The price on the restaurant menu is what you pay. Of course, you have the option to tip for extraordinary service, but it is not at all expected. This is so nice. No expectation of a tip, and the price on the menu is what you pay. I'm guessing this works because the restaurants more or less add the "gratuity" into the price of the food, and just pay their servers more. Seems like this makes life much easier.
So I posed the question to my wife after dinner: Why can't we have this kind of a system in the US?
I don't care what this site says about tipping being optional in the US. At restaurants at least, tipping is not optional - it is expected, if not required (especially if you want to be able to eat at that establishment again). I remember one experience where we had a large group, and we forgot to tip (long story, but we designated one person to tip, and they didn't remember to do so). The manager ran after us into the parking lot demanding the tip (and of course we apologized for the mistake). More and more restaurants I have been to now are adding 18% gratuity into the price of your bill, even in groups less than 6. So to say that tipping is an option is simply not accurate anymore.
In the states (and I'll continue to use restaurants as an example), couldn't we have a system where restaurants just add 18% (or whatever) into the price of your food items, pay the servers 18% more (or whatever) in wages, and stop pretending that gratuity is an option. This makes it easier on the customers (the price of the food is actually what you pay) and makes it easier on the servers (you don't have to worry about bad tippers... you know exactly what you will be paid). My wife brought up the point that without tips, servers would not be incentivized to perform well. My response to that is a few points. Servers could be incentivized to perform well at "nicer" restaurants by raises in salary for good performance. I say "nicer" restaurants because turnover of staff is much less at nicer restaurants. But back to my previous point, 18% tips are now expected (whether good or bad service), and in many cases, required now (added into the bill anyway). So the tip incentive for servers is evaporating. Also, it seems like more and more restaurants (and definitely bars) now pool the tips. So the person you are tipping is not actually getting the tip. The tips are distributed "evenly" across all of the service staff. In my opinion, that defeats the purpose of tipping an individual for a good job. You are essentially paying the staff's wages directly, when it should be the employer paying the wages. Why is this kind of a system in place? The countries we have visited have systems in place where no one tips, and we've had great service. There was no tip incentive for the wait staff to give us good service, but somehow we got good service anyway. Amazing.
So based on these points, I do not think that the current system of tipping is necessary for the service industry to function/survive in the US. After much discussion with my wife, we came down to the ultimate reason the system of tipping in the US is in place:
Taxes. The IRS has separated wages/salary from tip wages (you can see the two separated on your W2 statement every year). The employer doesn't have to pay social security, medicare, unemployment, etc taxes to the government for tip wages. The burden of taxes gets transferred to the employee. So the employer would much rather that the employee get paid in tips than in actual hourly wages. So after the long discussion with my wife, we determined that if we wanted a system of no tipping to happen in the US, we need to change the tax code, or get rid of income tax altogether and replace it with the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org).
My friends (and fellow Australian Dutchroll), without changing the US tax code, which separates tax rates for hourly wages and tippable wages, I'm afraid we are stuck with the current system of tipping in the US. |
dutchroll
New member
Username: dutchroll
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 10:54 pm: |
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"Getting a haircut is defined as a luxury."
Hmmm. I think that is truly stretching the definition of "luxury" for men at least! A bit like saying shaving (being a guy) is a luxury. Or wearing underwear is a luxury. However shaving is easy to do. Cutting my own hair is not. ;)
Technically I can do my plumbing for free, labour wise. I mean, there is no legal requirement to have a licenced plumber install my bathware. However I pay for his skills and knowledge so that I don't end up with a terrible plumbing job. I pay for hairdresser/barber skills and knowledge so I don't end up looking like a freak for 3 weeks (and believe me, some of mum's free haircuts when I was in school did end up like that).
So neither of these arguments really washes all that well, IMHO. We'll have to agree to disagree on the hairdresser, however if it is custom to tip the hairdresser/barber here in the USA, I most certainly will make sure I do that. I want to do the right thing, even if the system is weird!
It's funny you mention the cab driver. We most certainly don't tip cab drivers. In fact, if you've chatted to the cabbie and been really friendly to him, it is not that uncommon in Oz if you are fumbling finding change for the driver to say for example on a $31 fare, "oh that's OK - just make it 30 bucks". This would send an American into a coronary I suspect. ;)
Hi droopy 78. Yeah it's interesting travelling and seeing the different systems. Where I come from Down Under, our whole retail/service system is "if that's what the price says, that's what you pay". For example, we have a GST/VAT tax on most things. It is breaking Federal law to advertise a price without including ALL the required taxes and charges. They still show on your receipt though, so you know how much you're being shafted by the tax. This goes for food, services, whatever.
Of course, this doesn't mean it's illegal to expect a tip. Just that your advertised price is all you can reasonably expect someone to pay! |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2909
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 03:12 pm: |
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" The employer doesn't have to pay social security, medicare, unemployment, etc taxes to the government for tip wages".
Actually they do. But they get a tax credit for those payments on tipped income. This means that the statement "The burden of taxes gets transferred to the employee" is misleading. The employee pays no more social security or medicare payments than they would otherwise pay for the same amount of "regular wages". In fact, both tipped wages and hourly wages, even though separated on the W2, are combined to establish the amount of SS and Medicare taxes owed. And it's the same if you make $200 in hourly + $600 in tips as the dude at Sears that made $800 in employee wages in the same period.
"So I posed the question to my wife after dinner: Why can't we have this kind of a system in the US"?
A logical question, but you ignored the most obvious first questions that might give you the answer - how are restaurants different over there, how are dining habits different over there, and how are my expectations about "good service" different when I'm on vacation with my spouse and when I'm trying to get lunch in less than an hour during my lunch break or when I'm dining with 6 other couples for a 4 course dinner in my neighborhood? You might also ask yourself how many times you were greeted by a server in under a minute.
If you use the same critical thinking that you've used in the rest of your post, I'm sure that some things will come to you on your own (if you are *really* serious about the answer to your question, of course). |
droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 04:53 am: |
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The whole premise of my first argument is based on the fact that in the US, tipping is not really optional anymore. It is expected, if not required, that you tip 15 - 20% at restaurants, even if the service is so so. When it is expected (and on some checks, required), then the incentive for the server to work for the good tip has evaporated. Why pretend that tips are optional, and just include them in the price of the items (and as a customer, you can still *optionally* tip for extraordinary service)?
Are you implying that the service is faster and better in the US than places in the world that don't require tips? I don't know if you can make that argument (nor do I have enough info to make a counter argument). Aussie, what do you think? Does the U.S. have better/faster service than over there down under?
My second point was that, even if we wanted to eliminate tips, we couldn't do so without a change in the tax code. If there is any incentive for the employer to pay less taxes by having servers get their income through tips, they will always do so. You said it your self: "...they <the> get a tax credit for those payments on tipped income." As long as that is there, tips are here to say in the U.S. no matter what other arguments we have about tips being necessary for better service or not. Would you agree with that? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2910
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 10:44 am: |
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"The whole premise of my first argument is based on the fact that in the US, tipping is not really optional anymore. It is expected, if not required, that you tip 15 - 20% at restaurants, even if the service is so so. When it is expected (and on some checks, required), then the incentive for the server to work for the good tip has evaporated. Why pretend that tips are optional, and just include them in the price of the items (and as a customer, you can still *optionally* tip for extraordinary service)"?
This wasn't part of my rebuttal, but I don't "pretend" that it's option - it *is* optional, as many tip opponents like to point out - "I don't HAVE to tip you you know", "you should be grateful when I decide to give you a tip", yadda yadda yadda".
I take issue with "When it is expected (and on some checks, required), then the incentive for the server to work for the good tip has evaporated". That is precisely why I think that a mandatory service charge isn't a good idea. While I might "expect" a tip (who doesn't expect to get compensated for their service), I'm very aware that the size of my tip rests mainly on my service. There's no absolute correlation because, guests can be fickle because some always tip the same amount unless the service is really awful, but many guest *do* seem to calibrate their tip on the level of service and, for me, the difference between a $25 tip and a $40 tip is substantial. "Expecting" some tip is different than "expecting a 20% tip". I work hard to get that 20% tip. If I were paid a salary or the tip was an automatic service charge on every table, I really doubt that my service level would get better. It would probably erode, not because I'm lazy, but you've removed a major motivator.
Did you know that over 75% of Americans oppose a service charge and don't want the system to change (according to surveys done)? While you might see it one way (most people don't really care one way or the other), I think it indicates that, for most Americans, they prefer the act of tipping, and it could be for several reasons. I happen to think that many Americans like the idea of rewarding good service (based on the tens of thousands of people I've waited on) or perhaps they like the power of it. Yes, there's a minority of people who feel like you do, based on internet posts like yours, but you are in the minority, despite the fact that anyone can find hundreds of posts from like-minded people. In general, Americans like tipping.
" Are you implying that the service is faster and better in the US than places in the world that don't require tips? I don't know if you can make that argument (nor do I have enough info to make a counter argument). Aussie, what do you think? Does the U.S. have better/faster service than over there down under"?
You missed my point. Service is DIFFERENT. Service expectations are different. We Americans are impatient. That's why one of the items on a Secret shopper report is time of the greet. Most restaurants have a mandatory greet time of 1 minute. In other countries, service is more relaxed because their populace is more relaxed when dining out it's this impatience that requires large restaurants with overstaffing in order to make the time standards that Americans demand (heck, even small towns here have restaurants that dwarf most restaurants in even large cities in Europe). And when you overstaff, you can't pay your service staff the same wages that you can when you're waiting on 60 people with 3 servers as is often the case in foreign restaurants. They can get away with less servers because they don't have to cater quite as much to the time demands of the guest as we do here in the States. I told the story here a while back about taking my German ex and her mother to a German restaurant in Memphis when she came over to visit. We were sitting at the table when a group of 4 people came to the door. Because it was a German-styled restaurant, it was smaller than normal and only had 2 servers for the whole place (German food isn't hugely popular in Memphis in the first place). Anyway, those people waited to be seated (like many Euro restaurants, the servers are also the hosts) and I swear, at the 2 minute mark, they started figeting because no one had approached them. I poked my ex and said, "See these guys? Look how impatient they are". We watched them with amusement for the next two minutes. You could almost see the steam rising. Finally, our server was able to get over there at about the 5 minute point. They weren't happy campers. Now, had they been on vacation in Stuttgart, it would have probably been "quaint" and "charming".
Having lived in Europe for 7 years gives me a good perspective on dining in at least one part of the world. In Europe at least, there aren't very many restaurants that even approach the size and scale of the average P. F. Chang's. Most restaurants are what you might call mom-and-pop sized places here. People in other countries just don't dine out nearly as much as we do. and when they do, they don't flood restaurants requiring long waits for even a table.
You sort of ignored my questions. My point is to get you to look past "why don't we tip there and tip here" and challenge your own bias. The only first hand evidence that you have is your experience overseas, which you used to support your bias. But you didn't bother to look at the differences at the types of restaurants you encountered and the actual service standards that you encountered (and you failed to take into account the different expectations you have when you're on vacation sitting by the Aegean Sea with postcard views all around you and no special needs other than the waiter being able to understand you).
That's my point. If you look more critically at why Americans have "tolerated" a system unique to them, you'll find concrete reasons why the system has worked as well as it has for over half a century. And you'll find that they system continues to adapt and evolve as you find more hybrid restaurants like Pei Weis and Boston Markets, where tipping isn't a big deal and you basically serve yourself.
"My second point was that, even if we wanted to eliminate tips, we couldn't do so without a change in the tax code. If there is any incentive for the employer to pay less taxes by having servers get their income through tips, they will always do so. You said it your self: "...they <the> get a tax credit for those payments on tipped income." As long as that is there, tips are here to say in the U.S. no matter what other arguments we have about tips being necessary for better service or not. Would you agree with that"?
I think it's a minor factor. I don't think it's the driving motivator. I don't think tipping will change until Americans on the whole decide to change it. Then, it will be the case of the tax system changing *because* of the tip system changing, not the other way around. But that's just my opinion. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 519
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 06:27 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
In general, Americans like tipping.
Neecey said:
I think Americans are just doing it out of routine not because they like it. I can agree that there are plenty of people who aren't ready to start a movement to end the atrocious act of tipping but I don't think it goes as far as people liking it. It's not something I look forward to doing like when I head out to spend the day at Six Flags Great Adventure.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 786
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 09:06 pm: |
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"It is expected, if not required, that you tip 15 - 20% at restaurants, even if the service is so so." You have got to be kidding. Where on earth did you dream that up. That is just a stupid statement. So-so service is worth below 10%, way below. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2911
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 10:55 pm: |
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"Neecey said:
I think Americans are just doing it out of routine not because they like it. I can agree that there are plenty of people who aren't ready to start a movement to end the atrocious act of tipping but I don't think it goes as far as people liking it. It's not something I look forward to doing like when I head out to spend the day at Six Flags Great Adventure".
And I think that you're wrong and the numbers bear me out. Some people don't like going to spend the day at Six Flags Great Advantage and only do it for their kids, but I would never assume that Americans only go there out of routine just because I know of a few people who feel that way.
As long as 75% of people claim that they don't want to change the system, I'm going to say that they like it just the way it is. Otherwise, they'd poll differently and they probably *would* try to get it changed. You only have your own feelings and some random negative posts at random sites on the internet. As any customer service person can tell you, most comments on customer issues are negative - you rarely get letters saying how great things were. It's the same here - the silent majority is just fine with tipping. I've been party to thousands of tipping transactions and if I thought that most people thought it was a big hassle or had philosophical problems with it, I'd say so, because as long as I get my tip, I don't care what the motivation is. Do it grudgingly or think it's an inconvenience - I don't really care. I truly get the sense that tipping is mostly either totally transparent to the guest (it's almost second nature) or they enjoy the act in and of itself. I'm sure that there are a few grumblers among them. but mostly people seem to enjoy the act.
And that's my story and I'm sticking to it. If I see some groundswell of people seemingly annoyed at tipping (or if someone for the first time in my life as a server actually tells me in person that they hate tipping), you'll be the first to know. |
droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 03:11 am: |
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Can you please tell us where you got the number 75% for Americans who like tipping as a form of payment/income (i.e. provide a reference)? I will shut up for now if this is the case, and just resign myself to being in the minority. Looks like you are the one with some bias. I was simply posing a simple question, based on my experience as a customer in restaurants in America and other countries. As a customer, I really like the idea of doing away with the tipping expectation (instead, make it truly optional for extraordinary service... don't make it where the server's income depends on it). You obviously, as a server, are against getting rid of the system of tipping. Now if all servers (and others in the service industry) are of your same opinion, then there is no reason I should even pose this crazy idea of getting rid of tips in the US.
Now when you say that service is more relaxed overseas, to me that is just another way of saying the service is slower than in America. We have been in Europe for 4 weeks now (5 countries... 3 that expect tips, 2 that don't) and we have not had "slow" service yet (we a greeted quickly, food comes out quickly, etc). The only difference I see is that they don't bring the check out quickly at the end of your meal (they don't rush you so they can turn over a table)... yes, as an American, this sometimes gets annoying, but I also like it, as we are not rushed. So you are right, that the expectation here is different in this case, and this is considered good service over there. In any case, it warrants a good tip. And in places with no tips, it is still considered good service, but you have no expectation to tip (the servers get paid more, get raised based on performance, etc just like any other job).
"There's no absolute correlation because, guests can be fickle because some always tip the same amount unless the service is really awful."
I definitely agree with you on this. I think most people always tip the same percentage. I always tip 20% or above, and when the service is awful, I tip 15% (unless I'm required to tip 18% on the check). Some people always tip 15% for good service, and others only tip 10% for good service.
paid_up said," 'It is expected, if not required, that you tip 15 - 20% at restaurants, even if the service is so so.' You have got to be kidding. Where on earth did you dream that up. That is just a stupid statement. So-so service is worth below 10%, way below."
Really? I personally always tip 20% or above, and if the service is bad I will go down to 15%. That's just my nature because I know the server's income depends on my tips. Doesn't this site even say you shouldn't go below 10% for bad service? Correct me if I'm wrong on this. You guys are opening my eyes, and maybe I will start adjusting my tipping habits lower depending on level of service. Would you recommend going all the way down to 0%? It would definitely hurt my conscience to do so. What do the servers here think? |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 11:16 am: |
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Nah, don't listen to paid-up. No one else does. He tips 10% on good service, which is just plain stingy.
You tip rather high on the scale when it comes to bad service. Although each person has their own definition of 'bad'. For me, bad service warrents a 10% tip if I can tell the server didn't care.
If the place is busy and I know from experience that the server struggled to make me happy and notified the manager of my dire situation (which I can count on one hand), then I don't take it out on the server. Usually the manager takes care of the meal or buys a dessert due to uncontrolled circumstances; ie busy, short staffed, poor food quality, etc.
If the server doesn't care and the service was poor, 10%. Otherwise, I tip anywhere from 18 - 25% based on the server personality and punctuality of food/drink.
Teleburst and I are usually in agreement when it comes to Tips vs Service Charge vs Auto-grat.
Tips = Customer chooses the amount. Based on all the tables I wait on, people don't seem to have a problem deciding to tip on total/pre-tax amount. Occasions happen when they tip lower than I expected, but that would be my own opinion on how my service was. Maybe I forgot something the customer requested that impacted my tip.
Service Charge are for private functions in the place I work at. They rent out the room and a 20% service charge is to cover the catering manager and the servers' tips. It's added onto the sub-total and customers are aware of it before-hand. A lot of European restaurants will add this charge to ALL checks, thus by eliminating the need for Tips (see Above). I don't have anything against this procedure, but as Teleburst has pointed out, we would give good to great service, but I'm not going to go beyond my means to make it extrordinary. Laziness? No, but I don't want the customer to complain about my service, either. So I'll do what needs to be done.
Auto-grat is for groups of 5, 6, 10 or more. Each restaurant has a different number of people in a group to add the auto-grat. Some restaurants don't support this procedure. I can have a party of 20 in my section and if they decide to not tip, oh well. Managers chasing customers down happens rarely, and only in the few restaurants I worked at did the manager even care. If the service is bad, most customers will complain about the service if the auto-grat is added or not. In most cases, the manager would remove the auto-grat if the customer is upset about the service.
Speaking of Foreign Restaurants, you must have been one of the few to receive such prompt service. A friend of mine stayed in New Zealand for 3 months and stated the service was much more relaxed. Took 8 minutes for a greet and another 10 minutes for the drink to be delivered. No one complained because it was a group of people having fun talking, but here in America, that would be a major complaint from the customer if they had to wait that long.
Our discussions are mostly geared toward the servers and their attitudes about tipping. We should focus more on what customers expect in different countries. It's the customers that demand a level of service when they dine out and the levels are drastically different from one country to another. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 01:33 pm: |
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Part One:
"Can you please tell us where you got the number 75% for Americans who like tipping as a form of payment/income (i.e. provide a reference)"?
Here is the most current information on surveys from Cornell U. Notice that I'm not cherry-picking my data. I don't just present one side of the argument as some people do on this forum. there's certainly some data here that you can spin to claim that it indicates that there are a lot of people who aren't wholeharded supporters of tipping:
2004 Internet Survey by Michael Lynn1
I would prefer to have waiters and waitresses paid higher wages instead of tips.
44% Agree
34% Neutral
22% Disagree
(my note: - notice that this is fairly split between those who don't care and are in favor of tips vs. those who would rather see salary as opposed to tipping - it's still a minority though. We'll return to this later).
I dislike having to tip waiters and waitresses.
11% Agree
20% Neutral
69% Disagree
(Note the very small minority of people who really dislike tipping and the vast majority who are totally for it).
2002 Telephone Survey by International Communications Research
How do you feel about the practice of tipping – that is a fair way to compensate people who perform various services, or that it is unfair to customers to expects them to pay extra for services they’ve already paid for.
73% Fair
24% Unfair
3% Don’t Know
(Once again, tipping doesn't seem perceived by people to be intrinsically bad or exploitative or evil or a hassle).
2001 Telephone Survey by TNS Intersearch3
Under normal circumstances, how do you feel when a tip is automatically added to your bill? Are you…
57% Annoyed
41% Not Annoyed
1% Don’t Know
(Once again, a decent majority don't like autograts, which is what an automatic service charge to replace tips would mean - having said that, if it was *always* like that, people might not be as annoyed).
1996 Reader Survey by USA Today (w/ Penn State)4
Which do you prefer – having an automatic service charge added to your bill to cover the tip or determining for yourself what the tip should be?
5% Prefer service charge
95% Prefer tipping
(Once again, an overwhelming prefernce for tipping vs. service charge).
In general, which of the following best describes how you feel about tipping?
86% Favor
12% Oppose
(Looks like I understated it a little).
1989 Telephone Survey by Yankelovich Clancy Shulman5
Would you favor a system under which restaurants would add a mandatory service charge of 15 to 18 percent to your bill?
19% Yes
77% No
(There it is again).
1987 Telephone Survey by Gallup6
Waiter or waitress should receive a guaranteed wage instead of tips.
58% Agree
13% Neutral
23% Disagree
5% Don’t Know
(This one is closer than the others. A decent majority of those polled would prefer wages over tips. I'd point out that it isn't asked whether they would accept higher menu prices or automatic service charges. Of course, I'd like not to have to tip if it didn't mean an increase in prices. However, since I'm more likely not to like service charges, based on other polls, I wonder if I'd also be against supstantial menu cost increases. This question isn't really much of a slam dunk either way).
I would like it better if I was not expected to tip at restaurants.
33% Agree
19% Neutral
45% Disagree
3% Don’t Know
(67% of people either prefer to tip or just plain don't care one way or another).
A service charge of 15 to 18 percent is reasonable.
45% Agree
16% Neutral
34% Disagree
5% Don’t Know
(Sort of inconsequential either to my argument or the non-tippers' argument)
"Looks like you are the one with some bias".
Of course I have some bias. What you guys don't understand is that it's bias for you. My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner). All I'd have to do is get your order right. I wouldn't have to care so much about the small details, or even care whether you got an optimal experience. And, having been in the biz for a while and knowing the metrics of running a restaurant, i know that prices would have to rise on top of any automatic service charge due to the staffing levels that we have to maintain. I just got back from lunch and I had ZERO tables. and yet, under the new system, I would have had to have been paid about $50 (or $15 if it went to an autograt system because I presume that they'd have to pay me minimum wage instead of 2.13/hr for the two and a half hours I was there). those paid hours add up when you have enough servers on the floor "just in case", as all restaurants have to do.
End of part one |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2913
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 01:57 pm: |
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Part Two:
"I was simply posing a simple question, based on my experience as a customer in restaurants in America and other countries. As a customer, I really like the idea of doing away with the tipping expectation (instead, make it truly optional for extraordinary service... don't make it where the server's income depends on it). You obviously, as a server, are against getting rid of the system of tipping. Now if all servers (and others in the service industry) are of your same opinion, then there is no reason I should even pose this crazy idea of getting rid of tips in the US".
Look, no one says you can't express your opinion. I was pointing out that you made a conclusion about the system without taking anything into consideration other than the mere fact that tipping isn't common in other countries. You never even asked *why*. IOW, you were trying to validate your own conclusion.
"Now when you say that service is more relaxed overseas, to me that is just another way of saying the service is slower than in America".
See, that's because you haven't lived there or have much of an idea about how Europeans dine out vs. Americans. The service *is* "slower" because the pace is slower and dining out is less common and more of a "special occasion" sort of thing - in Europe, people still eat far more often with their families at home. This makes it easier for a server to wait on 8 tables instead of 4 because you generally just don't have the crush of diners that you have here. And when you do, it's tourists, who aren't usually looking at their stopwatches.
"We have been in Europe for 4 weeks now (5 countries... 3 that expect tips, 2 that don't) and we have not had "slow" service yet (we a greeted quickly, food comes out quickly, etc)".
See, this is vague. Our standards aren't quite so vague (plus, I doubt that Croatia has "Secret Shoppers" with 50 item checklists that they fill out). We aren't allowed to greet out tables "quickly" - it has to be a minute or less. Getting greeting "quickly" while on vacation could be anything. Our expectations are a bit different when we're relaxed and elsewhere. I'm not saying that you haven't been greeted or served within American time standards - I'm just pointing out that you have to be somewhat objective when you're trying to compare two diferent systems.
"The only difference I see is that they don't bring the check out quickly at the end of your meal (they don't rush you so they can turn over a table)... yes, as an American, this sometimes gets annoying, but I also like it, as we are not rushed".
BINGO. You are not rushed because you don't have to be. But this isn't just the "turning tables" thing, it's a reflection on how we Americans eat vs. how THEY eat, plus the fact that we serve a lot more diners per hour, so if you don't want to wait 3 hours instead of 45 minutes, each diner is going to be moved along fairly promptly (fortunately, this is in line with the "I want my stuff now" attitude that we Americans seem to embrace). I know a restaurant chain that just opened up in Europe. They've had to significantly modify "service standards" in order not to offend European dining sensibilities. These are things that aren't recognized when Americans go overseas and are overwhelmed by the fact that they don't have to tip. that's all they see. They don't dig any deeper than that. having actually lived overseas, I know that dining habits (and yes, restaurants) are different there.
And reaaaaaly now...that's the *only* difference you found between American restaurants and European ones? Really? You didn't notice the difference in staffing levels, capacity, waiting for a table times, menu offerings, etc?
I'm not trying to be catty - I'm just trying to get you to look at possible reasons whey they have a different system than us. It would be like asking, "Why must it get dark at night" while not taking the sun into consideration.
""There's no absolute correlation because, guests can be fickle because some always tip the same amount unless the service is really awful."
I definitely agree with you on this. I think most people always tip the same percentage. I always tip 20% or above, and when the service is awful, I tip 15% (unless I'm required to tip 18% on the check). Some people always tip 15% for good service, and others only tip 10% for good service".
We're in agreement here. That's why I constantly say that you shouldn't tip 15% or more for less than average service. It doesn't do anyone any favors. |
tourist_from_uk
New member
Username: tourist_from_uk
Post Number: 22
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 04:02 pm: |
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Teleburst - The most recent survey that you have cited is 5 years old. Are there any more recent surveys to compare and do you think that the general health of the US economy would have an affect on people's views with respect to tipping?
e.g. Economy unhealthy = disposable income down = negative views on tipping
And vice-versa....... |
tourist_from_uk
New member
Username: tourist_from_uk
Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 04:10 pm: |
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dutchroll and droopy78
You may find some of the opinions contained within the following blog resonate with your thoughts:
http://redblueamerica.com/blog/2008-04-24/tipping-is-a-crock-why-we-can%E2%80%99 t-save-any-money-pt-1-3020 |
droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 05:02 pm: |
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Don't worry, I'm not some European fanboy now, however, if you want to get technical, we have been greeted in less than 1 minute at most of the restaurants we sat down at in the countries where you don't tip servers (and some restaurants were indeed larger than P.F. Chang's, and were busy with long lines at the door). Again, I haven't lived here for 7 years like you, so my test sample is relatively small. In my experience in America, good service is more on a restaurant to restaurant basis (some normally give "good" service, and others don't).
"In general, which of the following best describes how you feel about tipping?
86% Favor
12% Oppose"
Wow. So this is your big piece of evidence that people like the current system of tipping. The question is so vague... it starts out with "In general". If I was asked this question over the phone, I would also have to answer "yes". If you answer "no" to this question, you could only be labeled as stingy (most people don't think of themselves as stingy). This question and many of the others you listed are in the context of the current American tipping system, where employees salaries are dependent on tips. Of course people will answer "yes", they favor tipping. No one wants to stiff their service professionals.
The questions I find relevant are the ones that ask if servers should get guaranteed wages instead of tips. The majority of people like this idea. This question by definition implies that customers would no longer be expected to tip, correct?
You yourself even said, "My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner)." Forget about the restaurant owners for a second. From a server's perspective, it sounds like you are also in the camp of getting a guaranteed wage.
Now from the restaurant owner's perspective, they would have to make a few adjustments if they now paid servers higher wages. During the hours they know are slow, they need to be vigilant about lowering the staff levels (ahead of time). If restaurants run under-staffed during busy hours, they could pay dearly for it. Servers will quit if overworked and go to other restaurants (restaurants that are known for not overworking employees), or they will get promoted and get raises faster if they stick with it through the hard times. It would be just like any other job. For example, I am in the software industry and work on salary. When we are busy, many of us are way overworked (we stay very late at night, etc), and we get no extra compensation. Our incentive is to get a good annual review so that we get a good raise or get a promotion (and it's a damn good incentive). In the service industry with higher turnover, the incentive could also be for good references by managers as you move on to better restaurants or other jobs (also a good incentive). And maybe there wouldn't be annual reviews/raises, but instead, monthly reviews/raises (smaller, but more frequent raises, since only monthly). But bottom the line for any profession is that the service should be good because IT'S YOUR JOB. Here in Europe, I will try and see if I notice restaurants who give poor service because tips aren't expected, as you are telling me. I have not witnessed it as of yet (I will be here another 6 weeks, moving toward Western Europe).
I am still of the opinion that none of this matters unless the tax system changes to eliminate the employer's tax incentive to make half of server's incomes tip-based. I say there is a much higher chance of a tax system overhaul way before anyone in the US thinks about eliminating the system of tipping (which would then requiring a change in the tax code, as you say). The Fair Tax movement is gaining steam (www.fairtax.org). If income taxes are completely eliminated (via the Fair Tax), you may actually see tipping dissolve naturally in the US (some smart restaurant owners might start paying their employees high hourly wages, and other restaurants would follow suit to keep up competitively... servers who eat at restaurants of server friends who get higher wages would tip lower, word would spread, and the circle would continue around and around until the tipping expectation is gone).
Back to my original point... it could happen here in America, but it has about zero possibility of happening without a change in the tax code. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 521
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 06:30 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
As long as 75% of people claim that they don't want to change the system, I'm going to say that they like it just the way it is.
Neecey said:
Being indifferent doesn't translate into affection for something.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 522
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 06:33 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
You only have your own feelings and some random negative posts at random sites on the internet.
Neecey said:
Well I have a very high regard for my own feelings thank you very much... :-)
Teleburst said:
Here is the most current information on surveys from Cornell U. Notice that I'm not cherry-picking my data. I don't just present one side of the argument as some people do on this forum.
Neecey said:
hmmnn I wonder who those people could be?
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 10, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 523
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 06:47 pm: |
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Teleburst posted:
I would prefer to have waiters and waitresses paid higher wages instead of tips.
44% Agree
34% Neutral
22% Disagree
Waiter or waitress should receive a guaranteed wage instead of tips.
58% Agree
13% Neutral
23% Disagree
5% Don’t Know
Neecey said:
Notice that these two question mention WAGE. Both times over 70% liked or didn't care. (If you're going to add the neutrals to the argument for tipping then it works the other way too). When you put the term tipping into the mix then people start thinking emotionally and that's where the answers start leaning towards in favor. Besides people are answering based on what they are used too add that to the fact that they know servers don't make a decent wage and people factor that into their answers. But that's just my gut feeling talking and of course my own intellect but hey feel free to disagree. This is America after all.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 524
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 06:53 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I know a restaurant chain that just opened up in Europe. They've had to significantly modify "service standards" in order not to offend European dining sensibilities.
Neecey said:
See i find this a bit funny. I'm American and I understand the hustle and bustle I mean I live in NY for crying out loud but that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy NOT being rushed when I dine out. I find it a bit amusing that you mention European sensibilities as if Americans don't like having leisure lunches or relaxing dinners.
Teleburst said:
And reaaaaaly now...that's the *only* difference you found between American restaurants and European ones? Really? You didn't notice the difference in staffing levels, capacity, waiting for a table times, menu offerings, etc?
Neecey said:
I believe it. I mean some people just come in order and enjoy their meal. I've only heard about all these extra details that apparantly one has to take in to account since coming on this board.
droopy78 said:
Now from the restaurant owner's perspective, they would have to make a few adjustments if they now paid servers higher wages. During the hours they know are slow, they need to be vigilant about lowering the staff levels (ahead of time). If restaurants run under-staffed during busy hours, they could pay dearly for it. Servers will quit if overworked and go to other restaurants (restaurants that are known for not overworking employees), or they will get promoted and get raises faster if they stick with it through the hard times. It would be just like any other job. For example, I am in the software industry and work on salary. When we are busy, many of us are way overworked (we stay very late at night, etc), and we get no extra compensation. Our incentive is to get a good annual review so that we get a good raise or get a promotion (and it's a damn good incentive). In the service industry with higher turnover, the incentive could also be for good references by managers as you move on to better restaurants or other jobs (also a good incentive). And maybe there wouldn't be annual reviews/raises, but instead, monthly reviews/raises (smaller, but more frequent raises, since only monthly). But bottom the line for any profession is that the service should be good because IT'S YOUR JOB. Here in Europe, I will try and see if I notice restaurants who give poor service because tips aren't expected, as you are telling me. I have not witnessed it as of yet (I will be here another 6 weeks, moving toward Western Europe).
Neecey said:
BINGO and I Agree!! However this logic has been explained and posted before but rejected because apparently this is the one industry that this common practice world NOT work. Go figure.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 10, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2914
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 10:39 am: |
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"Teleburst said:
As long as 75% of people claim that they don't want to change the system, I'm going to say that they like it just the way it is.
Neecey said:
Being indifferent doesn't translate into affection for something".
I *does* mean that they like it just the way it is. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "indifferent" to it.
"Well I have a very high regard for my own feelings thank you very much... :-)"
Apparently.
"Teleburst said:
Here is the most current information on surveys from Cornell U. Notice that I'm not cherry-picking my data. I don't just present one side of the argument as some people do on this forum.
Neecey said:
hmmnn I wonder who those people could be"?
It's people randomly polled by Dr. Michael Lynn, USA Today (with Penn State), International Communications Research, Yankelovich Clancy Shulman, Gallup, and actually on this very site, there was a poll a while back that asked, arre you in favor of the abolosihment of tipping (or something like that). The result, if I remember correctly, was something like 73%.
I wonder who all of the angry people on Internet forums are, and are they posting in their underwear?
Notice that these two question mention WAGE."
And notice that neither one includes the phrase, "If menu prices had to rise in order to pay the wage". I suspect that the number would erode, but that's just my gut feeling, but since I've actually participated in thousands of these transactions and seen how people respond when they tip, my gut reaction is based on a lot of first-hand observation.
"Teleburst - The most recent survey that you have cited is 5 years old. Are there any more recent surveys to compare and do you think that the general health of the US economy would have an affect on people's views with respect to tipping?
e.g. Economy unhealthy = disposable income down = negative views on tipping
I don't know. To ba accurate, you'd have to ask them if they prefer higher menu prices over tipping. I suspect that they wouldn't. This seems backed up by a definite preference for tipping over fixed service charges. I think that it would be even more profound in these days of financial crisis because who wants to pay "higher prices"?
"Teleburst said:
I know a restaurant chain that just opened up in Europe. They've had to significantly modify "service standards" in order not to offend European dining sensibilities.
Neecey said:
See i find this a bit funny. I'm American and I understand the hustle and bustle I mean I live in NY for crying out loud but that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy NOT being rushed when I dine out. I find it a bit amusing that you mention European sensibilities as if Americans don't like having leisure lunches or relaxing dinners".
I'm talking about the general tendency. But you knew that but decided to play one of your spin games.
"I believe it. I mean some people just come in order and enjoy their meal. I've only heard about all these extra details that apparantly one has to take in to account since coming on this board".
Gee, really? Did you know that even more people are actually more in a hurry (why do you think to-go has become so popular?) And I'm glad that you've been informed about these things, because if you didn't know these things, if you tried to be a server, you'd never make it if you assumed everyone just wanted to "come in and enjoy their meal". People whould be calling you an uncaring bitch on this forum.
" Here in Europe, I will try and see if I notice restaurants who give poor service because tips aren't expected, as you are telling me".
Once again, you miss the entire point. Unless you factor in the size of the restaurant, the number of servers, the application of the service points that we have to hit (1 minute greet times, 5 minute drink times, did I say Aqua Panna, San Pelligrino or tap water, did I solicit an appetizer and did I do it by name, did I do a quality check on each course within 2 minutes of deliving the course, etc.), you won't really be seeing anything at all.
Once again, it's about the *differences*, not "better or worse".
"Now from the restaurant owner's perspective, they would have to make a few adjustments if they now paid servers higher wages. During the hours they know are slow, they need to be vigilant about lowering the staff levels (ahead of time)".
Hmmmm, that would never work as compared to the German (and French, I think) system, where wages are paid on a monthly basis.
"When we are busy, many of us are way overworked (we stay very late at night, etc), and we get no extra compensation. Our incentive is to get a good annual review so that we get a good raise or get a promotion (and it's a damn good incentive)".
Gee, just like working for a tip.
All of the "fixes" that you mention are already being done, but because of the nature of the restaurant, this system works best because it allows the restaurant to stay flexible.
" But bottom the line for any profession is that the service should be good because IT'S YOUR JOB".
Of course it is. But this isn't like "I've done my job because I stayed late to finish that report that's due tomorrow". Just look at people like Neecey and others on this forum who have very critical ideas about how the job should be done. It's not as easy to say, "just do your job" as you would like. yeah yeah, I know - *every* job is hard. *Every* job has its challenges. that's a cop-out. This job can't reasonably be compared to most jobs. It really *is* different, regardless of what you folks want to hear. We've had people here say, "It's just the same as any other job" and in the same breath say, "I would never do it". <shrug>
Finally, note who is giving you the whole story and who is only repeating their old talking points over and over again. Note who has the courage to post things that show the world as shades of grey instead of black and white.
And I hope that you, droopy, enjoys Europe. I know I enjoyed living in Germany, even though I couldn't cut my grass on Sunday. Blasphemy, right? We should adopt the same thing here. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 11:35 am: |
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We're comparing European Restaurants with American restaurants. I was told the European restaurants incorporate a Service Charge on ALL checks.
So I'm confused. The only difference between the two is Optional vs Not Optional. Now granted, the customer has the pleasure of not having to determine the tip, but under my experience; customers tend to enjoy the choice of tipping vs the forced tip.
As a server, and Teleburst has already stated, if they did an auto-service charge, Great! Now I don't have to worry about the cheapo peeps coming in and stiffing me, or the people taking the wrong copy of the credit card receipt, or the people who come in angry and want to take it out on the server. People like paid-up would be forced to fork over 18%, Woot!
Questions:
What if the customer wants to leave more, can he/she?
What if the service is poor? What would be the procedure?
Who would define poor service? Usually the customer does, but what if the customer is unhappy with the food quality? Can they deduct the Service Charge, or will the manager defend the server's pay?
Birthday/Anniversary comps and mistake comps - Will the Service Charge also be lowered by this comp? To keep it the same, Manager would have to modify the tip for total before the comp. Can be done, but would the customer accept?
Now, if we're talking about restaurants like North Korea or New Zealand, where there is not a service charge added and the wait staff makes hourly wage, that will not work in the US.
We have beaten the horse to Hades and back on that discussion and it all boils down to costs and income for the restaurant and the servers.
Your Monthly reviews have good meaning, but it's already done. Good servers get the good schedules, good sections, etc. They are reviewed at every table by the customer. Why, as a server would I only want a little increase in pay from the manager when I could get a big increase in tip from the customer?
Plus, it's not only about the percentage of the tip that accounts for my income, but the amount I sell. If I'm selling 50.00 per person worth of food and make 20.00 an hour, then I'm golden. But some nights I sell enough to have 150.00 per person and my income doesn't change. There is no incentive to sell apps, desserts or drinks if I'm making the same money selling entrees only.
Sure, the manager could monitor that, but again; he's already doing this. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1392
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 01:24 pm: |
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You know, re-reading the information given, one thing we are being a bit vague on is the type of restaurant we're talking about.
Seeing as Teleburst and I are speaking from experience of upscale/fine dining restaurants; we haven't really included all aspects of the spectrums.
Tipping here in America works for ALL aspects, from the diner with the chopped sirloin and onions for 6.95, to the Del Frisco's Steakhouse in Dallas with the Longbone for 89.95. The aspect of service does change with both concepts, as well as the expectation of quality and environment.
Many people argue there is no difference to bring one item compared to another, we well as opening one type of wine compared to another.
Setting that aside, working under an hourly wage would only work for certain restaurants; ie the ones that are open for 3 meals or 24 hours. As a server, that is the only way I would get the required 40 hours. What do we do with the restaurants that cater to breakfast and lunch only? Dinner Only? This would be an impact to the servers who work at places like that.
Ignore hours and lets talk about hourly. Teleburst stated to make the amount he makes now, the restaurant would have to pay 25.00 per hour. This is fair to say in my area, as well. Work 40 hrs and my paycheck will be roughly 1000.00 per week. About what I could make if we're busy. However, what about the restaurant? Where is this extra money going to come from? Do you think prices will not increase if the restaurant had to pay 1000.00 bucks per week to 18 servers who put in 40 hours? Current 2.13 an hour for 18 servers working 40 hours is 1533.60 a week. Now compare that to 18000.00 per week! Where is that money going to come from?
Oh too much to pay a server? Well, that hurts the people who work at the fine dining places. What are we to do now when customers see good people leave these nice restaurants to work for a place that doesn't require so many demands in excellence.
On the other side, places like Waffle House, where the normal per person average is 8.00, most servers get 20-30% tips because the amount is so low. To keep those same low prices, the restaurant isn't going to pay servers 25.00 an hour. More like just above minimum wage. Now the servers have to work more hours to make the same money. It's not like they would be working either. During the slow times, servers will be standing around waiting for the next rush. How many managers are going to let staff stand around and get paid for it? Even in the office world, managers cut hours or even lay off people when everyone has nothing to do. How would this help the servers?
How would this effect the customers? Less number of restaurants, lower service levels, longer wait time to be seated due to lower staffing levels, quality of food decreasing to cover labor costs, higher prices, and less incentives the restaurant offers for dining with them.
What does the customer gain? Feeling good they don't have to figure out 15-20% of the sub-total.
Seems like a big drastic change that impacts a ton of employees/restaurants/customers for a handful of small amount of customers posting blogs. |
tourist_from_uk
New member
Username: tourist_from_uk
Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 04:29 pm: |
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vozveratu: "We're comparing European Restaurants with American restaurants. I was told the European restaurants incorporate a Service Charge on ALL checks."
Yes, in the UK service is already included in the bill.....sorry check. However, it is not a specific line item e.g service charge @ 18% = £18.00. It is built into the price of each individual menu item (as is UK tax). Thus a simple bill would be:
App 1 £4.99
App 2 £5.49
Entree 1 £21.99
Entree 2 £25.99
Vin Rouge £31.99
Coffee x 2 £5.98
Total £96.43
Full stop, end of story and I pay £96.43 and walk out of the restaurant happy knowing that all of the restaurant staff have been paid.
However, to answer your questions:
"What if the customer wants to leave more, can he/she?"
Most definitely yes. This is what tipping should be.
"What if the service is poor? What would be the procedure?"
Complain to the manager/owner.
"Who would define poor service?"
Clearly the customer.
"Usually the customer does, but what if the customer is unhappy with the food quality?"
The customer complains. There is no need for distinction between service, food or anything else within a restaurant, if something is not right then point it out and hopefully it will be rectified.
"Can they deduct the Service Charge, or will the manager defend the server's pay?"
As the servers are paid by salary or hourly this doesn't apply. If the complaint is justified then something will be taken off the bill. If the complaint is attributable to staff (both FOH and BOH) then it is up to the management to determine the sanction - warnings etc.
"Birthday/Anniversary comps and mistake comps - Will the Service Charge also be lowered by this comp?"
Yes and no. Yes because there are less items paid for and service charge is built into item price. No because the service charge does not relate to servers pay in the way that it does in the US.
"To keep it the same, Manager would have to modify the tip for total before the comp. Can be done, but would the customer accept?"
See above.
(Message edited by tourist_from_uk on August 11, 2009) |
droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 05:48 pm: |
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"Teleburst stated to make the amount he makes now, the restaurant would have to pay 25.00 per hour. This is fair to say in my area, as well. Work 40 hrs and my paycheck will be roughly 1000.00 per week. About what I could make if we're busy. However, what about the restaurant? Where is this extra money going to come from? Do you think prices will not increase if the restaurant had to pay 1000.00 bucks per week to 18 servers who put in 40 hours?"
You obviously haven't read any of my posts. Of course the price of food on the menu would go up. To what price? I don't know. That would be up to the restaurant owners. Probably by 18%.
"On the other side, places like Waffle House, where the normal per person average is 8.00, most servers get 20-30% tips because the amount is so low. To keep those same low prices, the restaurant isn't going to pay servers 25.00 an hour. More like just above minimum wage."
Ha. Waffle House employees get tipped the same percentage as any other server (used to each there all the time in college and had friends who worked there). Of course they won't get paid $25 an hour like a server at PF Chang's would. Under the new system, they would get paid the same amount they would've before. If they made $8/hr in wages and $7/hr in tips previously, under the new system they might make $15 an hour. If Waffle House can't hire servers at this rate, then they will have to raise wages (and vica versa... they would lower wage rates if the demand to be a Waffle House server is high).
"Now the servers have to work more hours to make the same money."
Not true. They could now make a consistent income equivalent to the amount they would have made with tips.
"During the slow times, servers will be standing around waiting for the next rush."
That is now a positive for you servers, huh? A consistent income, even in slow times (just like any other job)
"How many managers are going to let staff stand around and get paid for it?"
Like I said, they will may have to make adjustments. Instead of saying "screw you servers, you must stand around making no money while no business comes in", they will actually need to be more vigilant about scheduling people accordingly. Schedule too few people during busy times, servers will become disgruntled and leave for another restaurant, (this happens with any type of job when you are overworked... workers vote with their feet). Schedule too many people during a slow time, and yes, they sit around with nothing to do making a nice consistent wage (like any other job). This is the life of a manager (in any industry).
"Even in the office world, managers cut hours or even lay off people when everyone has nothing to do."
You are correct.
"How would this effect the customers? Less number of restaurants, lower service levels, longer wait time to be seated due to lower staffing levels, quality of food decreasing to cover labor costs, higher prices, and less incentives the restaurant offers for dining with them."
Higher prices? Yes. The prices of each item would go up approximately as much as you would have tipped. This will support the server's higher salary to offset the lack of tips (ideally, the server would make the same as when he/she did with tips, except they would now get the income on a consistent, hourly basis). The rest of what you list would be dictated by supply and demand (normal economics) and competition with other restaurants. For instance, if restaurant owners deem it necessary to lower the service staff to run more efficiently, they may do that. However, if the customers stop frequenting that restaurant because the wait/service is bad, the restaurant owner would need to ratchet up the staffing levels and improve quality. I tend to think that servers would be treated better by the restaurants in this system. Restaurants don't want to lose their good servers to other restaurants, so they wouldn't want to understaff their restaurants during busy times and piss off their servers(they could no longer have the excuse of saying, "well, you got extra tips didn't you?").
"What does the customer gain? Feeling good they don't have to figure out 15-20% of the sub-total. "
Yes. And to spare us the sham of acting like gratuity is optional. 15-20% is expected (and in parties of 6 or more, 18% is required). A true OPTIONAL tip is to expect 0% tip, and if the customer feels like it, they give a little extra for good service. That's what we are all talking about here.
"Seems like a big drastic change that impacts a ton of employees/restaurants/customers for a handful of small amount of customers posting blogs."
Hmmm.. there are only 2 people on this thread (counting yourself) who seem to be in favor of servers getting tip income instead of a consistent, higher hourly wage income. And the other person, teleburst, said himself "My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner)." So actually, so far you are the only one on this thread with this opinion. |
tourist_from_uk
New member
Username: tourist_from_uk
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 05:52 pm: |
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vozveratu: "Seems like a big drastic change that impacts a ton of employees/restaurants/customers for a handful of small amount of customers posting blogs."
....vozveratu I agree with you, it is a drastic change and it would have a negative impact on tipped US servers earnings....
You will have to be more convincing on the impact on restaurants and customers given that they form the major parts of the supply and demand balance.
However, this still remains and academic debate because, like any ingrained system, it is unlikely to change drastically. As a customer, who holidays in the US from time to time, I have a simple choice. Accept the custom for what it is or avoid full service restaurants.
Just a couple of observations from my last holiday in Orlando Fl (Jul 09).
1. It was significantly less busy around the usual tourist traps than last year. However, places like Denny's and IHOP etc were extremely busy in spite of this. More upscale places seemed less busy.
2. We dined out (other than the hotel) less than on previous visits and didn't feel like we had missed out on anything.
3. The hotel where we stayed had a diner where they included a 15% autograt on the check - happy days!! That said, we were extremely well looked after by the diner staff and we 'tipped' over and above the autograt when appropriate - home from home.... |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 526
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 08:20 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I'm talking about the general tendency. But you knew that but decided to play one of your spin games.
Neecey said:
No, I decided to post my opinion about something you posted. Lets just stick to what's being posted shall we and leave the assumptions on the thread I created just for you... :-)
Teleburst said:
if you tried to be a server,.....
Neecey said:
Nope, so your point was a waste of space. :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 11, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 527
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:04 am: |
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"What does the customer gain? Feeling good they don't have to figure out 15-20% of the sub-total. "
Yes. And to spare us the sham of acting like gratuity is optional. 15-20% is expected (and in parties of 6 or more, 18% is required). A true OPTIONAL tip is to expect 0% tip, and if the customer feels like it, they give a little extra for good service. That's what we are all talking about here.
Neecey said:
I'm always stuck on this part where the emotions involved on the side of the customer regarding the tipping practice is put aside as if that isn't as relevant as other details.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2915
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 04:20 pm: |
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Combining serveral posts:
"Can they deduct the Service Charge, or will the manager defend the server's pay?"
As the servers are paid by salary or hourly this doesn't apply".
Ahhh, but it does, because only a portion of a UK server's pay is hourly. The rest is based on a service charge, as you pointed out. And apparently, the service charge can vary. In our new British restaurant, the service charge was only 10.something%.
The problem with including the tax with the price (from an American perspective) is that tax rates vary because we don't have a VAT. All sales taxes are on a state and municipal level. It varies from 0% (in two states) to over 9%. In fact, the tax tate in Nashville is higher than a town two counties over, because there's a state sales tax that's constant *plus* a municipal rate, which varies from county to county and city to city.
Since we are used to seeing prices as they *actually* are, not counting taxes, it's actually strange for us to pay a combined "final price" because we never know how much we are getting stung by the tax unless we do some convoluted mental arithmetic. How much is that Big Ben paperweight really, and how much goes to the government? What does £25.oo really mean in terms of how much I'm paying for the product?
It's not wrong, it's just different.
And it's the same with the tip. It's not like I see the menu and the prices, consume the food and then am surprised at the end of the meal with an additional charge that I didn't know was "part of the price". All of this, "I don't know how much I'm paying" argument is only the case if you don't know that a tip is expected.
""Teleburst stated to make the amount he makes now, the restaurant would have to pay 25.00 per hour. This is fair to say in my area, as well. Work 40 hrs and my paycheck will be roughly 1000.00 per week. About what I could make if we're busy. However, what about the restaurant? Where is this extra money going to come from? Do you think prices will not increase if the restaurant had to pay 1000.00 bucks per week to 18 servers who put in 40 hours?"
You obviously haven't read any of my posts. Of course the price of food on the menu would go up. To what price? I don't know. That would be up to the restaurant owners. Probably by 18%".
compare the prices between a meal at Applebee's in Tennessee (2.13/hr) vs a meal at Applebee's in California($8.00). You'll find that the meal averages about 10% more. And this is with the tip standard being the same in both places. So, it's optimistic to think that prices would only rise by the service charge. I'm guessing that prices would go up around 25% or so.
" Of course they won't get paid $25 an hour like a server at PF Chang's would".
Servers at P.F. Chang's make about $15 - 17 an hour in 2.13/hr states. This is just about what most mass market servers make. You only get above this (as an overall average) when you get to high-end restaurants where the cost is $50 - 100 a head.
""During the slow times, servers will be standing around waiting for the next rush."
That is now a positive for you servers, huh? A consistent income, even in slow times (just like any other job)"
That's why you should take our word when we say that we are looking out for YOUR interests. Yet you accuse us of "bias". If we were biased, *of course* we'd want to be paid what we're making now without the risk of tipping. I wouldn't worry about getting cut early because I'd have to be allowed to "make my hours" regardless of the business. I'd make my money even if all I did was ask you what you wanted and then delivered the food.
"Higher prices? Yes. The prices of each item would go up approximately as much as you would have tipped".
As I've pointed out, that doesn't seem to be the case currently. Plus, you'd never know for sure. This way, you know exactly what the item itself costs, minus tax and tip. Total transparency and the ability to tailor the "service charge" to the actual service received.
""Seems like a big drastic change that impacts a ton of employees/restaurants/customers for a handful of small amount of customers posting blogs."
Hmmm.. there are only 2 people on this thread (counting yourself) who seem to be in favor of servers getting tip income instead of a consistent, higher hourly wage income. And the other person, teleburst, said himself "My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner)." So actually, so far you are the only one on this thread with this opinion".
And yet, you didn't bother to pay attention to the polling data.
You seem to be completely missing the point yet again. We're trying to tell you that it's in YOUR interest to keep things the same. This should eliminate the charge of "bias" that was flung at me. and I don't think that any other servers have weighed in, but I suspect that they're satisfied with the way things are in general.
"Neecey said:
I'm always stuck on this part where the emotions involved on the side of the customer regarding the tipping practice is put aside as if that isn't as relevant as other details".
And *I'm* stuck that you ignore that the vast majority of people don't have these "emotions". I'm sorry that you have to suffer so much. Things shouldn't change just because *you* are suffering though.
What's "relevant" is the fact that America in general has used this system for many many years. If there was enough general dissatisfaction or "emotion" on the issue, it would change. and who knows, it might. But I understand that there's an uproar in NYC right now that a few restaurants *are* changing to a mandatory service charge on all checks. And guess what? New Yorkers seem outraged about it, based on comments on the Times article about this new "trend".
So, perhaps you're going to get your wish at least in NYC. If you want to help it along, simply refuse to dine anywhere that doesn't offer a service charge. That is, unless they are forced by public opinion to drop them. You can help prevent that from happening by finding out which restaurants are doing this and supporting them. maybe the idea will catch on. |
tourist_from_uk
New member
Username: tourist_from_uk
Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 05:52 pm: |
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teleburst: "Ahhh, but it does, because only a portion of a UK server's pay is hourly. The rest is based on a service charge, as you pointed out. And apparently, the service charge can vary. In our new British restaurant, the service charge was only 10.something%"
No it does not. A UK server will be employed at an hourly rate or at an annual salary (tips at the customer's discretion). The relationship to a service charge will be as determined by the business model/plan. Events of a particular evening, where a server may be at fault for something, will be dealt with in accordance with the circumstance. This is unlikely to be based around x% of service charge to be defended/deducted by the manager.
teleburst: "Since we are used to seeing prices as they *actually* are, not counting taxes, it's actually strange for us to pay a combined "final price" because we never know how much we are getting stung by the tax unless we do some convoluted mental arithmetic. How much is that Big Ben paperweight really, and how much goes to the government? What does £25.oo really mean in terms of how much I'm paying for the product?"
Clearly opinions vary here. I am just interested in what comes out of my wallet. Scenario 1. Eldest daughter picks up DVD in Virgin Megastore Manchester UK @ £9.99 incl VAT. Hands over £10.00 and gets penny change. Scenario 2. Eldest daughter picks up DVD at shop in Florida Mall Orlando price marked at $9.99. Hands over $10.00 and is embarrassed to learn that tax wasn't included. "Why can't they just put the price including tax on the label" came the cry. Different country with a different system. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2916
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 07:06 pm: |
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"teleburst: "Ahhh, but it does, because only a portion of a UK server's pay is hourly. The rest is based on a service charge, as you pointed out. And apparently, the service charge can vary. In our new British restaurant, the service charge was only 10.something%"
No it does not. A UK server will be employed at an hourly rate or at an annual salary (tips at the customer's discretion)".
Sorry, you're right.
Damn - glad I'm not a struggling London server making a tick over $10 an hour plus a few token tips. That might be OK in the hinterlands of the Cotwolds, but that would be like trying to live on $13 an hour in Manhattan. That's why this system is so good - it equalizes over a wide range of local economic systems. In places with higher cost of living, the hourly rate is higher (this seems to happen pretty organically). I'm not sure if it's the same there. Everything seems to be in the neighborhood of £6/hr.
"Clearly opinions vary here. I am just interested in what comes out of my wallet. Scenario 1. Eldest daughter picks up DVD in Virgin Megastore Manchester UK @ £9.99 incl VAT. Hands over £10.00 and gets penny change. Scenario 2. Eldest daughter picks up DVD at shop in Florida Mall Orlando price marked at $9.99. Hands over $10.00 and is embarrassed to learn that tax wasn't included. "Why can't they just put the price including tax on the label" came the cry. Different country with a different system".
Eldest daughter doesn't do her homework before she comes over here? Seems like if you don't do your research, you're only "embarassed" once.
However, that's not an indictment of the system. Of course you're going to gravitate to what you know. We Americans don't have a fixed tax rate so I think we sort of like to know the cost of the actual item since that same $9.99 DVD will cost $100.54 in Orlando, $101.00 here in Nashville and $9.95 in Nashua, New Hampshire. Oh yeah, it will cost only $10.50 just up the road in Mountain City, TN. So we simply wait until they ring it up and tell us the final total. At least we know that the DVD shop is selling the item at the same price in Nashua as they are in Nashville, or if they aren't, we can price compare. I know in Germany for example, prices are pretty much fixed and discounting is rare (unless that has changed with the advent of the EU), except for sales. So you don't really get to "pick the cheapest price". So, once again, transparency works in favor of the consumer.
If you are "just interested in what comes out of my wallet", I'd think that you'd be happy not to pay 15% VAT on that DVD by buying it over here (even if you have to wait the 10 seconds it takes to ring it up before you pull it out of your wallet) by paying anywhere from 0% to 9.50% here in the States.
Seriously, it just a minor mindset adjustment to change from dealing with tax included to tax added on. It's not that big of a deal.
I agree with "Different country with a different system". Thanks for making my point for me. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 788
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 07:38 pm: |
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10% and all will be well. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 528
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 10:29 am: |
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Teleburst said:
And *I'm* stuck that you ignore that the vast majority of people don't have these "emotions".
Neecey said:
Pretending they don't exist because they don't show up on polls is ridiculous. Polls are black and white with no room for emotional interpretation. It's questions and answers that you like to quote and that's it. No explanations involved on why some came to that answer. Some of the research out there do go on to explain that sometimes the numbers don't reflect the attitudes ut there. You cling to these polls but there are more to these answers than the yes and no responses you seem to think explain everything. That's all I'm pointing out.Teleburst said:
Damn - glad I'm not a struggling London server making a tick over $10 an hour plus a few token tips. That might be OK in the hinterlands of the Cotwolds, but that would be like trying to live on $13 an hour in Manhattan.
Neecey said:
People do it all the time over here. They just work two jobs or be the best employee out there and get a promotion which would earn them more. By the way $13 an hour isn't too shabby even for NY standards. I mean one doesn't HAVE to live in Mahanttan. There's always the boroughs until you've earned a level at your job where you'll be paid enough to live the Manhattan lifestyle. But regardless, $13 is a good starting wage I don't understand this opinion that $17 an hour is something that someone thinks is, for the most part, a normal starting wage.
Teleburst said:
Seriously, it just a minor mindset adjustment to change from dealing with tax included to tax added on. It's not that big of a deal.
Neecey said:
Well I doubt the person embarrased in the transaction thinks it's "no big deal" which is the point of the example given but dismissing it as minor should clear it all up.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 13, 2009)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 13, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 529
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 01:15 pm: |
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another thing about the minor mindset adjustment from taxes included to taxes not included. NY used to have tax on clothes then that was taken away for a couple of years then put back on. After getting used to no tax, once it was put back on the total at the register was still always an annoying shock. I mean you figure it in your head as you go but for some reason it always adds up to way more once the register gets involved (go figure :-) and you cringe when you see it so yeah even as an American it's annoying the same when we travel from state to state and realize oh crap there's tax here in Virginia.....(NY is back to no tax on clothes). It's a nuisance! There's no denying it so I can only imagine how much more annoying it would be for people who aren't accustomed to this craziness on the regular.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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droopy78
New member
Username: droopy78
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 03:23 pm: |
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Droopy78 said: "Hmmm.. there are only 2 people on this thread (counting yourself) who seem to be in favor of servers getting tip income instead of a consistent, higher hourly wage income. And the other person, teleburst, said himself "My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner)." So actually, so far you are the only one on this thread with this opinion".
Teleburst said "And yet, you didn't bother to pay attention to the polling data."
Indeed I did pay attention to the polling data:
2004 Internet Survey by Michael Lynn1
I would prefer to have waiters and waitresses paid higher wages instead of tips.
44% Agree
34% Neutral
22% Disagree
1987 Telephone Survey by Gallup6
Waiter or waitress should receive a guaranteed wage instead of tips.
58% Agree
13% Neutral
23% Disagree
5% Don’t Know
These polling results support my statement above that people prefer guaranteed/higher wages for servers instead of tips. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 530
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 03:52 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
As long as 75% of people claim that they don't want to change the system, I'm going to say that they like it just the way it is.
Neecey said:
Being indifferent doesn't translate into affection for something".
Teleburst responded:
I *does* mean that they like it just the way it is. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "indifferent" to it.
----------------------------
Neecey said:
I missed this before.. It *does* mean....??? really? I disagree. You believe not acting on something to mean they like it just fine whereas I believe it to mean that some just don't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other. Again being indifferent doesn't mean they like it by default. Just that it's something they are okay just dealing with. I don't like the fare being hiked up but I'll deal with it cause there are more important things I need to use my energy on.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2917
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 03:56 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
And *I'm* stuck that you ignore that the vast majority of people don't have these "emotions".
Neecey said:
Pretending they don't exist because they don't show up on polls is ridiculous. Polls are black and white with no room for emotional interpretation. It's questions and answers that you like to quote and that's it. No explanations involved on why some came to that answer. Some of the research out there do go on to explain that sometimes the numbers don't reflect the attitudes ut there. You cling to these polls but there are more to these answers than the yes and no responses you seem to think explain everything. That's all I'm pointing out".
No, what you forget is that I'm using polls to back up my observations from 15 years of waiting tables. You, on the other hand, refuse to accept the results of the polls or you cherry pick them to support your own viewpoint, which is only backed up by "your emotions".
"People do it all the time over here. They just work two jobs"
They they really aren't just making $13 an hour (or they're making $13 an hour for 60 - 70 hours a week). Do you claim that you only make $12 an hour simply because you work part time at the Gap? Could you survive comfortably on less than $2000 a month living and working in Manhattan? (as you point out, I guess you could save some money by commuting 2 - 4 hours a day by commuting but that costs money as well) You might be able to "get by" for a while, but the fact that you have to augment your primary job with a retail job seems to belie that. I doubt that you have too many servers in Manhattan only making $13 an hour with their hourly and their tipped wages rolled in together in any case (I averaged between $15 - $17 an hour here in Tennessee working P. F. Chang's).
And, while it's not impossible, it's quite hard to work a second job of any significance when you're waiting tables because of the way the schedule jumps around or the fact that you can't ever be sure of when your shift ends.
"Teleburst said:
Seriously, it just a minor mindset adjustment to change from dealing with tax included to tax added on. It's not that big of a deal.
Neecey said:
Well I doubt the person embarrased in the transaction thinks it's "no big deal" which is the point of the example given but dismissing it as minor should clear it all up".
Quite right.
Your sarcasm aside, if someone thinks that something like that is a "big deal", then they have problems that won't be solved by including the tax. It's really just a minor thing really.
" Droopy78 said: "Hmmm.. there are only 2 people on this thread (counting yourself) who seem to be in favor of servers getting tip income instead of a consistent, higher hourly wage income. And the other person, teleburst, said himself "My job would be so much easier if I just got a straight 20% of sales or $25 an hour (which is just about what I average now in my restaurant that averages $75 a head at dinner)." So actually, so far you are the only one on this thread with this opinion".
Teleburst said "And yet, you didn't bother to pay attention to the polling data."
Indeed I did pay attention to the polling data:
2004 Internet Survey by Michael Lynn1
I would prefer to have waiters and waitresses paid higher wages instead of tips.
44% Agree
34% Neutral
22% Disagree
1987 Telephone Survey by Gallup6
Waiter or waitress should receive a guaranteed wage instead of tips.
58% Agree
13% Neutral
23% Disagree
5% Don’t Know
These polling results support my statement above that people prefer guaranteed/higher wages for servers instead of tips".
Only if you throw out the other 6 polls that indicate otherwise. I could have cherrypicked those polls out to support my view if I had wanted to display a misleading slam-dunk of my position, and it's likely that you never have known. I don't think it's right to do that though. I try to give the whole picture, not just the part that supports my viewpoint.
And note that neither of those polls adds the important reality - "...if menu prices had to go up to affect those changes". It's easy to say "I think waiters and waitresses should be paid a guarantted wage" if I don't consider the fact that menu prices would go up significantly. This seems to be supported by the one slam dunk among all of the polls:
1996 Reader Survey by USA Today (w/ Penn State)4
Which do you prefer – having an automatic service charge added to your bill to cover the tip or determining for yourself what the tip should be?
5% Prefer service charge
95% Prefer tipping
95% of people prefer choice over compulsory payments? Why am I not surprised? What *does* surprise me is the few people that seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces and take everyone else's noses with them. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 531
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 04:56 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
No, what you forget is that I'm using polls to back up my observations from 15 years of waiting tables.
Neecey said:
Forget? Why should I remember? Then include that part along side the numbered polls you posted. Besides my point tries to take into account the emotional aspect of all those yes/no answers coming from actual people that HAVE emotions. You post these numbers then go into YOUR beliefs and experience referencing only the #'s from the polls and not what those numbers may be leaving out.
Teleburst said:
Could you survive comfortably on less than $2000 a month living and working in Manhattan?
Neecey said:
Who said anything about comfortably? Who just starts off on life comfortably (without a college degree even some who do)? You have to work for it.
Teleburst said:
Only if you throw out the other 6 polls that indicate otherwise
Neecey said:
You're ignoring the main point. Those other 6 polls mention tipping whereas the two we are referring to mention wages. That's the whole difference right there with regards to the polls. Like I said you're not recognizing the different mindsets the questions themselves are creating. That's where the emotions come into play. Two of us have explained how using the term WAGE contributed to the poll results and yet you aren't understanding the significance.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 532
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 05:06 pm: |
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Teleburst mentioned:
And note that neither of those polls adds the important reality - "...if menu prices had to go up to affect those changes". It's easy to say "I think waiters and waitresses should be paid a guarantted wage" if I don't consider the fact that menu prices would go up significantly. This seems to be supported by the one slam dunk among all of the polls:
Neecey said:
Okay lets use this one question from the poll:
In general, which of the following best describes how you feel about tipping?
86% Favor
12% Oppose
Let's continue that one to say......"if you knew that the server was making a decent wage to start"?
That would probably affect those numbers as well, wouldn't you think?
This is why I don't really care for polls because the questions asked and answers given could always still be interpretted differently than the data suggests depending on someone's opinion of the question being asked and how it was received. We've just taken stats and suggested they could mean something completely different by including variables that didn't exist in the initial asking of the questions. Starts going in circles doesn't it?
(Those damn emotions getting in the way of pure data....dang nab it!)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 13, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2918
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 06:40 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
No, what you forget is that I'm using polls to back up my observations from 15 years of waiting tables.
Neecey said:
Forget? Why should I remember"?
Gee, I dunno. You seem to remember everything else. You have even sometimes conveniently forgotten points even made in the same thread just a few points up.
"Besides my point tries to take into account the emotional aspect of all those yes/no answers coming from actual people that HAVE emotions. You post these numbers then go into YOUR beliefs and experience referencing only the #'s from the polls and not what those numbers may be leaving out".
I'm not just referencing the numbers - I'm using them to back what what I've claimed from my direct observation of thousands and thousands of these transactions. I agree that that there are a few sensitive sisters that have a contrary view. There's nothing that 100% of people are in favor of, and there's no system that's 100% perfect. And, when I say that from my observations, most people seem very comfortable with tipping and quite a few even delight in it (like the lady the other night who paid me $500 in $50 bills on a $380 bill post tax and made sure I knew that she didn't need any change), you dismiss it, so I bring out the polls to back up my observations. Plus, I bring them ALL out, not cherry-pick them, and it's clear that the overall trend is highly weighed toward tipping. That is, if you look at it without bias.
"Teleburst said:
Could you survive comfortably on less than $2000 a month living and working in Manhattan?
Neecey said:
Who said anything about comfortably"?
I think I implied it. If you don't like the term comfortably, how about "survive without just barely ekeing out a living"? Heck, I can "live" on minimum wage if I have to. But that's hardly what most of us would consider acceptable unless you're just starting out.
"Teleburst said:
Only if you throw out the other 6 polls that indicate otherwise
Neecey said:
You're ignoring the main point. Those other 6 polls mention tipping whereas the two we are referring to mention wages. That's the whole difference right there with regards to the polls. Like I said you're not recognizing the different mindsets the questions themselves are creating".
And you aren't?
You're just grasping for straws, trying to find any crack in the polls to support your viewpoint. If they were all worded just the way you'd like, you'd still find a way to discount them "Who are these people?", "Everyone I knows feels differently", "The polls aren't taking *my* feelings into account", etc.
It's clear that those two polls (which I admitted up front are less indicative of my viewpoint than the others) are much closer than the others, and, I'd use your own point that they could be worded differently to express the actual reality of what paying a guaranteed wage would do to menu prices. and if they were so worded, the question about preferring tipping to service charges (by an almost unheard of 95% to 5%) indicates that the figures might very well end up quite different.
"Teleburst said:
As long as 75% of people claim that they don't want to change the system, I'm going to say that they like it just the way it is.
Neecey said:
Being indifferent doesn't translate into affection for something".
Teleburst responded:
It *does* mean that they like it just the way it is. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "indifferent" to it.
----------------------------
Neecey said:
I missed this before.. It *does* mean....??? really? I disagree. You believe not acting on something to mean they like it just fine"
No, I said that they like it just the way it is. There's a difference between that and "liking it just fine". They don't care enough to want to change it. therefore they like it just the way it is. If they *didn't* like it just the way it is, they wouldn't be neutral about it.
"Two of us have explained how using the term WAGE contributed to the poll results and yet you aren't understanding the significance".
And you refuse to see how leaving out the qualifier "if menu prices went up" makes it easier to say "sure, I want servers to make a guaranteed wage instead of having to tip them". Of course, you've saidthat you're in favor of raising menu prices to get rid of tipping, but I'll bet that you're in the extreme minority on that one. Even one of those polls seems to back that up.
"Neecey said:
Okay lets use this one question from the poll:
In general, which of the following best describes how you feel about tipping?
86% Favor
12% Oppose
Let's continue that one to say......"if you knew that the server was making a decent wage to start"?
But that's not the reality, now is it? You could also continue, "if you knew that puppies would be drowned everytime a tip was given". think that might affect things? Or, the very real qualifier, "if you knew that your server currently made between 2.13 an hour :insert wage: in Tennessee :insert state: ". What do you think THAT might do to the results? You think it might jump to the same ratio of people who prefer tipping to a fixed service charge? I think so.
It's clearly A FACT that tipping keeps down the price of menu items (I've given evidence on that many times, but I'm sure that you haven't "remembered" that either). Based on some of the ignorance about that on this very forum, not mentioning that little fact skews any poll question that asks about wages versus tipping.
"This is why I don't really care for polls because the questions asked and answers given could always still be interpretted differently than the data suggests depending on someone's opinion of the question being asked and how it was received. We've just taken stats and suggested they could mean something completely different by including variables that didn't exist in the initial asking of the questions. Starts going in circles doesn't it"?
But it's more than you've got when you start talking about "feelings" and "emotions", especially when you imply that many feel like you do. Sure, polls can lie. Polls can be used in improper manners, like only quoting the polls that work in your favor. Polls can be poorly worded. In fact, I think that the two polls that have been singled out by you and droopy suffer from being poorly worded because it leaves out important information that isn't immediately clear to most.
"(Those damn emotions getting in the way of pure data....dang nab it!)"
I have far more access to the "emotions" of far more people on this subject that you ever will. I see it more in a week than you'll experience it in a year.
Facts suck, don't they? If you can only throw them out, you can argue from any side of any argument. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 533
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 08:52 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
You're just grasping for straws, trying to find any crack in the polls to support your viewpoint.
Neecey said:
No I RECOGNIZE the cracks that all polls have which is why I don't care for them. :-)
Teleburst said:
It's clearly A FACT that tipping keeps down the price of menu items
Neecey said:
But that's not the purpose for tipping.
Teleburst said:
But it's more than you've got when you start talking about "feelings" and "emotions",
Neecey said:
Really? It does? So the people answering these polls don't have feelings and emotions? That's the part I don't understand about your addiction to polls. Everyone has them and a yes or no answer doesn't really convey what are really on these people's minds and why they are answering the way the are... Only discussing and getting insight from different opinions really seems like an intelligent way to come to an educated conclusion of a subject. Not black and white, stuffy data that gets calculated with an equation. Not to mention other people's interpretations of those answers.
Teleburst said:
I have far more access to the "emotions" of far more people on this subject that you ever will.
Neecey said:
Yeah, I don't know about that one but go right ahead and claim that authority on life you seem to think you and only you can hold.
Teleburst said:
Facts suck, don't they?
Neecey said:
Funny thing, I don't claim that my written word is fact. That's seems like a pretty superior thing to do. I never did care for those who misinform others into believing that they are speaking fact when in all actuality there's a possibility that they may be mistaken.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 167
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 01:05 am: |
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Aww, Teleburst and Neecey, together again. (smooch!)
Even though tipping can sometimes be a pain in the keister, I really don't see any other way around it without everyone losing.
Menu prices would go up more than anyone would participate, crappy servers would be rewarded and great servers would get a significant pay cut.
I think the two problems people have with tipping are judging someone's performance and physically forking over more money for the bill.
So, what would be the price of a menu item that was $10 if it was a set wage no tips? Would it be $11.50 or $12.00? Or would it be much more than that?
Another question is how will the government health care plan affect restaurants? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2919
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 08:54 am: |
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Neecey wrote:
"Teleburst said:
It's clearly A FACT that tipping keeps down the price of menu items
Neecey said:
But that's not the purpose for tipping".
Who cares? If I said one of the main reasons for tipping was to make it possible for people like David Chang to open a restaurant like Momofuku in the first place, would it matter?
The purpose doesn't matter to most people, it's the result of it. The "purpose" of tipping isn't the issue for most people. And guess what - it actually *has* actually become one of the purposes of tipping by default because owners look that the preference of people of paying lower "sticker prices" prices as one of the reasons they don't want to change the system.
"Teleburst said:
But it's more than you've got when you start talking about "feelings" and "emotions",
Neecey said:
Really? It does? So the people answering these polls don't have feelings and emotions"?
Of course they do (you seem to be saying that they don't). That's why the answers to the questions are important. They are a reflection of what I see everyday.
"That's the part I don't understand about your addiction to polls. Everyone has them and a yes or no answer doesn't really convey what are really on these people's minds and why they are answering the way the are..."
Of course it does. "Do you prefer tipping to service charges"? "Why yes I do". Can't be any more unambiguous than that. What kind of "emotion" or clarification do you need to know? In a question like "I would prefer to have waiters and waitresses paid higher wages instead of tips", you actually *do* need clarification because you have to make sure that the respondent is aware of the ramifications of the change. In the previous question, the ramification is inherent in the question, choice of tipping amount is taken away. I suppose the answer might change a little if you added on one of two qualifiers - "if it meant the server made more money" or "if it meant the server made less money". I'll bet that if you added the second phrase, the ratio might actually rise to 98% for tipping.
"Teleburst said:
I have far more access to the "emotions" of far more people on this subject that you ever will.
Neecey said:
Yeah, I don't know about that one but go right ahead and claim that authority on life you seem to think you and only you can hold".
I'm saying that I have access to a lot more observational data than you do. But that really isn't enough because, heck, I could be lying because this is just an internet forum. Every other of my tables might be scowling and complaining to their tablemates everytime they get to the "fill out the tip moment". I might have people coming up to me at parties when they find out that I'm a server and complaining about tipping or wondering why I let my restaurant use me for 2.13 an hour or ask me why *they* have to pay my salary, not the restaurant. So the polls are backup to my "claims". They are also useful to me to show that there are people who don't like the actual act of tipping. It's a good reminder to me to be on my best server behavior and not take anything for granted.
"Funny thing, I don't claim that my written word is fact. That's seems like a pretty superior thing to do. I never did care for those who misinform others into believing that they are speaking fact when in all actuality there's a possibility that they may be mistaken".
I don't mind admitting when I am mistaken. I did it in this very thread. I welcome correction when I'm either wrong or I misspeak. The problem with you "emotional types" is that you rarely admit when *you* are mistaken. "But how can I be mistaken in my feelings", you ask. You might not be. But sometimes your feelings conflict with the greater good. Hate tipping? Fine. It's something you have to deal with when most people like it just the way it is. About the only thing you can do is try to change other people's minds and about the only way you can do that is by the facts. If the facts don't work, then you're pretty much screwed. Example - one of the only "facts" that you have on your side is the fact that the guest is paying the wage, not the restaurant. This seems to be the major thing that those few naysayers are hung up on. Unfortunately, when presented with that "fact", something that I think most people know nowadays, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. If it did, people would be clamoring to change the system. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 09:04 am: |
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Kris wrote: "Even though tipping can sometimes be a pain in the keister, I really don't see any other way around it without everyone losing".
See, that's the thing. I see it as a lose-lose. Currently, for most people it's a win-win.
"Menu prices would go up more than anyone would participate, crappy servers would be rewarded and great servers would get a significant pay cut".
You'd certainly drive out many good servers if their wages arbitrarily went down. That's why you'd at least have to use an average hourly wage, which would be simple to do in most restaurants since the data is there ready to be crunched. When you smooth the averages out, I'm sure that you'd find that most servers would fall within a $3/hr range, so it's unlikely that even the best server would lose too badly. In my restaurant, they'd have to pay at least $25 an hour ($30 an hour for dinner and $20 an hour for a lunch differential), while in P.F. Chang's, they'd pay more like $18/hr for dinner and $12/hr for lunch differential). It can certainly be done because, let's face it, this is one of the few jobs where the end user has directly set the market for the prevailing wage and you can use that as a basis for paying your staff because you have access to the data. and guess what? It's only the server's fault if they haen't been declaring all of their tips if their claimed tips ended up meaning that they were paid less an hour based on the calculations. The only person that would really be stung by this is someone like me who has always decared everything they make.
"I think the two problems people have with tipping are judging someone's performance and physically forking over more money for the bill".
I think the first is more significant to the second. I think the biggest problem most people have is "Why doesn't the restaurant pay the wages? Why do I have to"?
"So, what would be the price of a menu item that was $10 if it was a set wage no tips? Would it be $11.50 or $12.00? Or would it be much more than that"?
Well, as I've said, you already have an indication of that when you compare the prices of menus from California and Tennessee. Just raising the wage from 2.13/hr to $8/hr means a 10% increase in cost (tipping being the same in both places). The problem is, even with the additional income from the extra 18% that menu prices would have to go up to pay existing wages (or close to it), you'd still have a shortfall do to the number of hours that you have to pay people to keep them on the floor during slow times. You'd think that would be factored in, but it really isn't. For instance, in my restaurant, this is the time of year when people take their "vacations". We voluntarily take unpaid time off during this time because the business just isn't there. This means that fewer people are on the floor and they can at least make *some* money instead of having to have the full complement of 10 servers waiting on 60 people. I don't see any way that switching to hourly can deal with that sort of problem. It's easier psychologically to say, "Sure, I'll take off a week" than for the boss to tell you to take a week off without pay. "No, you're not going to get a paycheck this week" or "Sorry, I'm cutting your shifts to 2 shifts during this slow time so you're only going to make $200 this wekk instead of you normal $600". This is already done to an extent because a shift or two might be trimmed from everyone. But there's still a lot of excess "manpower" on the floor because, well, you just never know when you'e going to get a weird rush. Most nights during the summer, we could get by with 5 servers. We have to keep at least 8, which means that we usually schedule 9 and let someone go home once the restaurant is set up.
Once you go hourly, you lose a lot of the flexibility to pay and deploy your employees in a job that demands flexibility. Our shifts don't end at 2pm or 10pm, they might end at 12 noon if the business isn't there or 9 pm if the last table finishes up early or 12:30 if we get a 9:30 table. the hours are just too variable. I'm guessing that managers would end up being more aggressive in cutting in order to stay within the "average" payroll that they had established and service might suffer. This isn't a fact, just a guess based on the pressure that a manager has to keep costs in line.
" Another question is how will the government health care plan affect restaurants"?
That's a good question. I don't know. I get health insurance, but I'm in the minority. I also get cheap health insurance, which puts me in the extreme minority. The only reason I get it that cheaply is that company subsidized it by having one of the co-owners of the corporation actually pony up some significant money out of his own pocket. That's rare, but we are sort of a "family run" business.
I'm guessing that menu prices are going to go up at least a couple of percentage points if employers are mandated to offer health insurance or are "fined" if they don't (both proposals on the table). I don't see anyway around it. Margins are already slim and have been cut even more by the double whammy of fewer butts in seats and menu price-slashing like half price wine, special dinners, two-for-ones and all of the things that desperate operators are doing to try to attract people back in restaurants. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 534
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 12:20 pm: |
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Kris said:
Aww, Teleburst and Neecey, together again. (smooch!)
Neecey said:
Hee! Smooches right back. Nice to hear from you too.
Teleburst said:
I'm saying that I have access to a lot more observational data than you do
Neecey said:
Well a good part of my position explores how people really feel but don't feel comfortable expressing. When I dine I have a very pleasant demeanor and show no qualms about tipping and yet here I am debating the subject. You would never know that waiting on me so your "observational data" isn't as clear cut as you may think.
Teleburst said:
The problem with you "emotional types" is that you rarely admit when *you* are mistaken.
Neecey said:
Mistaken about what? My own opinion? That's what I don't get. I express my logic on the subject and since it's bases on my experiences and my perception on something then there's nothing to be wrong about. My point of view isn't universal law and I come to my conclusions based on what I feel is relevant information out there. Your problem is that you continue to try and get me to admit that my opinion is wrong but that's not really something you can dictate to someone else. I'm always clear about the fact that my opinion.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 789
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 05:26 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
I'm saying that I have access to a lot more observational data than you do" Which way does your water turn when you flush the toilet?
Use your observational data on that one. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2921
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 05:35 pm: |
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"Well a good part of my position explores how people really feel but don't feel comfortable expressing".
I'm sure you wouldn't mind expressing your opinion in a poll (or would you maintain that "pleasant demeanor" and not say anything or express any dissatisfaction?) And I'm sure that you'd make up part of the negative view of tipping. I'm comfortable with that.
"Teleburst said:
The problem with you "emotional types" is that you rarely admit when *you* are mistaken.
Neecey said:
"Mistaken about what? My own opinion"?
No, when you misstate someone's opinion or incorrectly quote someone.
" Your problem is that you continue to try and get me to admit that my opinion is wrong".
No problem here. You can have whatever opinion you like. Your problem is that you don't like your opinion challenged. Opinions aren't sacrosanct, you know. They *can* be wrong sometimes, although they're never wrong to the person holding them.
It *is* OK to explore the downside of your opinion or are we supposed to just sit on the sidelines and not supply the "relevant information" that you talk about? Seems to me that you don't really care as much about relevant information when it doesn't dovetail with your view. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 535
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 09:25 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Your problem is that you don't like your opinion challenged.
Neecey said:
No I just don't like someone taking my opinion and spinning it to sound like something else than what it really is. Other than that all is gravy. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 09:43 am: |
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"No I just don't like someone taking my opinion and spinning it to sound like something else than what it really is".
Wow. Like changing "like it just the way it is" to "like it just fine"?
Is *that* what you meant?
Now, how have I spun your opinions to mean something different than you intended? I think I get the following points from you - you don't like the "pressure" of judging a server's performance and having the consequence of their wages being based on that judgment, you think that employers should pay their employees instead of the consumer, and you don't mind menu prices going up even more than what you're paying now with menu price and tip combined. I'm not sure exactly where you fall on the issue of applying a service charge vs. rolling the wage directly into the menu price. I'm not sure if you have a preference for one or the other or whether you care which "solution" is used. You also don't seem to think that a "guaranteed wage" would negatively impact service in general, but that if it does, it's worth it to remove the burden of you having to judge a server's performance (the last part of that is just a guess on my part). You also think that your opinion is more widespread than polls indicate and is shared by a lot more people than servers think from observing people in the act of tipping.
How did I do? |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 792
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 10:29 am: |
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teleburst-your incoherent ramblings bring nothing to the table. You must realize that your mind games are quite boring. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 536
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 10:54 am: |
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Teleburst said:
Wow. Like changing "like it just the way it is" to "like it just fine"?
Neecey said:
Oh goodness gracious! <sigh> That was my interpretation of your post. I worded it differently in my response because to me both those phrases were similar in meaning. If you meant it differently then that's how further posts clarify things and that's usually how a discussion works.
No when I say spin, I mean when you take a perfectly logical post and try to make it seem as if the poster is trying to start some crusade against servers. Then continuing on this mistaken path based on your own misguided interpretations of other people's opinions instead of staying focused on the reasoning behind the posts.... Oh lookie here, we've done it again..... <sigh>...what were we talking about again..??? :-)
Teleburst said:
Now, how have I spun your opinions to mean something different than you intended? I think I get the following points from you - you don't like the "pressure" of judging a server's performance and having the consequence of their wages being based on that judgment, you think that employers should pay their employees instead of the consumer, and you don't mind menu prices going up even more than what you're paying now with menu price and tip combined. I'm not sure exactly where you fall on the issue of applying a service charge vs. rolling the wage directly into the menu price. I'm not sure if you have a preference for one or the other or whether you care which "solution" is used. You also don't seem to think that a "guaranteed wage" would negatively impact service in general, but that if it does, it's worth it to remove the burden of you having to judge a server's performance (the last part of that is just a guess on my part). You also think that your opinion is more widespread than polls indicate and is shared by a lot more people than servers think from observing people in the act of tipping.
How did I do?
Neecey said:
Wow! REFRESHING! Now if you could continue on this path of focused discussion without letting ridiculous variables get in the way we just may get somewhere with these debates..very hopeful.
Oh and BTW, you did very well actually.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 16, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2924
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 11:03 am: |
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"Teleburst said:
Wow. Like changing "like it just the way it is" to "like it just fine"?
Neecey said:
Oh goodness gracious! <sigh> That was my interpretation of your post".
So, spinning others' words your way is fine but having your words spun is distastful. I see.
" I worded it differently in my response because to me both those phrases were similar in meaning. If you meant it differently then that's how further posts clarify things and that's usually how a discussion works".
So how is that different than having *your* words spun? Doesn't this principle apply to your words as well?
"No when I say spin, I mean when you take a perfectly logical post and try to make it seem as if the poster is trying to start some crusade against servers".
You're doing it again. I'm assuming of course that you're referring to your posts and my responses to those posts.
Please, quote me trying to characterize your position as "some crusade against servers".
All I've ever done is point out the downsides of your various positions and tried to point out the potential consequences of your various positions. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 537
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 03:13 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
So, spinning others' words your way is fine but having your words spun is distastful. I see.
Neceey said:
My way? The two phrases were pretty similar that's all there was to that. I'm not getting the sinisterness....
Teleburst said:
So how is that different than having *your* words spun? Doesn't this principle apply to your words as well?
Neecey said:
You misinterpret complete posts and opinions. I interpreted a *phrase* differently than you intended which is like tomato...tomahto. Not really the same thing.
Teleburst said:
All I've ever done is point out the downsides of your various positions and tried to point out the potential consequences of your various positions.
Neceey said:
Okay.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 538
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 03:20 pm: |
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It would just be nicer without tipping. Regardless of higher prices, paycuts, etc. Let's put it this way. If everything had a tipping system, grocery shopping, best buy, macy's, The movies, etc. then I'm sure there would be a noticable buzz about how much people disliked it. I think that's a good way to gage the idea of it. If it were applied to everything out there what would people's reaction be? I would suspect dread of leaving one's house being among the top reactions LOL!
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 16, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2925
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 07:28 am: |
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"Neecey said:
You misinterpret complete posts and opinions".
I guess this is another one of your "feelings".
Something completely unsubstantiated by actual facts.
"It would just be nicer without tipping".
Well, I'm sorry that you have to do it.
"Let's put it this way. If everything had a tipping system, grocery shopping, best buy, macy's, The movies, etc. then I'm sure there would be a noticable buzz about how much people disliked it".
But it isn't that way, now is it? So why even bother pretending? If you had to "order" each item that you wanted to buy off of a Macy's shelf from a person and wait 10 minutes for it, I bet people wouldn't like that either. So we should just do away with dining out because it should be like shopping at Macy's.
"I think that's a good way to gage the idea of it".
And I think it's stupid. Isn't it great that we're both right?
http://eater.com/archives/2009/02/la_gamin.php |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 539
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 09:26 am: |
|
Teleburst said:
I guess this is another one of your "feelings".
Neecey said:
Yup. (Backed up by actual posts but we won't go there) :-)
Teleburst said:
Well, I'm sorry that you have to do it.
Neecey said:
So am I. :-(
Teleburst said:
If you had to "order" each item that you wanted to buy off of a Macy's shelf from a person and wait 10 minutes for it, I bet people wouldn't like that either.
Neecey said:
True. When I ask a salesperson for a size and they run to the stockroom to get it while getting other sizes for other customers causing me to wait oh, about 5-10 minutes it does get a bit frustrating. Luckily I have the comfort of knowing that I don't need to fork over an additional amount of money for that part of my shopping experience. Whew! Could you imagine anticipating that sort of detail everytime you had to leave the house for any reason??? Would be sort of daunting. Good thing as it is now it's only an *infrequent* occurance therefore making it's frustration *not a big deal*. Hee.
Teleburst said:
And I think it's stupid. Isn't it great that we're both right?
Neecey said:
But we are not both right... hmmmm. Brainteaser. Good Luck! :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 540
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 10:06 am: |
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http://eater.com/archives/2009/02/la_gamin.php
Looks to me that some people want an automatic wage and are being deceitful about it. It's like, hey I server you I better get paid and to avoid any cheapskates we have this automatic service charge that isn't brought to your attention. Seems to me, if people just practiced the outrageous custom of getting paid by your employer (imagine that!) then there wouldn't be any sneaky charges that leave customers feeling *officially* robbed. A price is a price is a price. If it's too high for me then I won't go in but if I do go in then at least I know that's where ends. Whatever I order is what I pay for and that's that. Why doesn't that concept get the simple approval it deserves? I mean really. There's craziness about sneakiness, different percentage expectations, etc. etc. because of a system that is annoying and let's business owners off the hook and places the burden on customers who when it's all said and done usually just want to have a nice dinner for whatever reason. Yes, I am a customer that is annoyed by this stupid detail at the end of my meal. The fact that this is a variable that can affect MY experience so much is freaking annoying.
Example:
Last week I went to the pool with my boyfriend, son, sister in law her boyfriend and daughter. Four adults, an eight year old and 13 month old. We wanted to grab something to eat and honestly we were heading to the burger king on the corner when we noticed that it was ridiculous packed because of the pool across the street and the line was ridiculous. I noticed a mexican restaurant at the middle of the block and decided to head over there because I didn't want to deal with the crowd. The place was really empty, just one other table was seated. We had a decent experience although we had to track down our guy a couple of times because he kept disappearing to do other things (he was taking care of stuff around the restaurant and we weren't rushing out of there anyway) so we didn't let it bother us. We get the check and I take a second glance for whatever reason and notice that the 15% tip had been automatically included. I was glad I looked again cause I would have probably included a tip on the charge slip. Anyway, I was a little put off by it for like a second and showed my sister in law who gave me a look but then said well they do that with 6 or more party trying to rationalize. I was thinking to myself, no it's actually 8 or more and besides one of the *6* in our party was a 13 month old anyway but whatever. I mean I went to the restaurant because I didn't have the energy to deal with the stress of the fast food joint so it was a bit ironic to me that I avoided one nuisance but still ended up with something bothersome crossing my path. I just paid the bill and shrugged it off cause I just didn't want to be bothered and he did a well enough job so my annoyance came and went but not completely. I told my sister in law, he just lost out cause I usually leave about 18-20% but the whole inclusion of the tip without even advertising or making it known rubbed me the wrong way so I left it at what was automatically calculated. I just wanted to have a nice relaxing meal and although I had that I also wanted to LEAVE the establishment nice and relaxed not slightly put off and telling myself it's not that big a deal. It's just silly that we can be put into situations where after you leave a place the topic of conversation for the next 20 or so minutes will be a rehashing of the whole "check/tip" scenario and how annoying things have become.
And yes sometimes it does linger a little while after leaving whether it's been brought to the manager's attention or not. Human nature.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1395
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 10:51 am: |
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Teleburst, it's getting quite funny to see the same posts by people who's arguement is 'Doesn't feel right', 'Other countries' and paid-up's rambling of whatever he rambles about.
However we have time and time expressed what details would need to be reviewed on a new system and what issues it would cause for the restaurants here in America, and it's completely ignored.
I think tourist_from_uk is the only one actually responding to some of the issues we brought up with possible solutions. But so many are still unanswered:
- Restaurant Labor costs on Hourly Wages.
- Hours allowed/scheduled for Servers during slow times.
- What Wage Servers would earn worth keeping good servers on board.
If I'm getting paid well, I wouldn't care if they paid me salary, hourly or with auto-grat. Under the current system, the customer get's to choose my level of service. Under the new system most people on this board is pushing for, you're taking the control out of the customer (with a simple percentage) and putting it in the hands of the manager. (Labor Costs, Menu Prices, Monthly review and raises, bonuses, and level of service)
That is where I am confused on why there is such a passion to state this idea as being a good one.
Since no one on this board is speaking as a Foreign Server, we can only assume the life style that a server lives is one that is comfortable.
We can talk till we're blue in the face about how great service is in Japan, Germany, England, Tim Buck Two; but I would want to know if the Server is able to make a comfortable living doing it.
Most servers in the US are using this job as a steping stone to learning the field while attending school for Hotel/Restaurant Management or Cooking.
Some are using it to earn quick cash while going to school for another career. If the hours have to be increased to meet the amount of money currently being made, then you'll have a lot of college kids looking for a new job.
Teleburst, myself and most of the servers in the high-end scale can live on the money we earn.
As long as we're earning the same amount and not having to work crazy hours, then pay me hourly, salary, or with auto-grat. I don't care.
But if the income is much lower, or my hours are much longer; then I'd rather stay with the current system and let customers decide my outcome.
As I've stated many times before, it's a win-win-win situation in America.
Management - Win: Lower labor costs for FOH. Resulting in ample coverage of the floor. Suggestive selling to increase the PPA so as to have a higher tip amount.
Server - Win: Percentage of bill being the reward resulting in drive to excel, suggest food and wine, and perform for a higher percentage. Lower hours required with a flexible schedule.
Customer - Lower prices of menu items and control on the amount to tip based on level of service. Service should be excellent due to the server striving for a higher tip.
Even if the customer 'feels' uncomfortable measuring someone's service. Just put a flat 15% on the sub-total and complain to the manager if the service was not meeting your standards. It would be the same as complaining to a manager if the server is being paid hourly.
Let the server worry about the non-tippers, low tippers, and forgetful tippers. It happens, will continue to happen and is just part of the biz. Sure, we biatch about customer's who don't tip, but people in any field will complain about the downfalls of their job. Who doesn't? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 12:34 pm: |
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"True. When I ask a salesperson for a size and they run to the stockroom to get it while getting other sizes for other customers causing me to wait oh, about 5-10 minutes it does get a bit frustrating. Luckily I have the comfort of knowing that I don't need to fork over an additional amount of money for that part of my shopping experience. Whew! Could you imagine anticipating that sort of detail everytime you had to leave the house for any reason???"
Of course not. So why bother "imagining" it in the first place?
"Teleburst said:
And I think it's stupid. Isn't it great that we're both right?
Neecey said:
But we are not both right... hmmmm. Brainteaser. Good Luck! :-)"
Ahhhh, but we are. Both right, that is. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2927
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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"Looks to me that some people want an automatic wage and are being deceitful about it. It's like, hey I server you I better get paid and to avoid any cheapskates we have this automatic service charge that isn't brought to your attention. Seems to me, if people just practiced the outrageous custom of getting paid by your employer (imagine that!) then there wouldn't be any sneaky charges that leave customers feeling *officially* robbed".
How is it "sneaky" if it's right there on the bill? Every guest should look at the bill.
"The fact that this is a variable that can affect MY experience so much is freaking annoying".
Yes, it's freakish alright. I save my annoyance for things that really matter - like getting cut off in traffic <g>.
" We get the check and I take a second glance for whatever reason and notice that the 15% tip had been automatically included".
Isn't that what you want? Now you don't have to worry about the tip. You simply sign the credit card slip or pay cash for the "total bill". I'd think you'd be celebrating that and they'd now have a customer for life.
" It's just silly that we can be put into situations where after you leave a place the topic of conversation for the next 20 or so minutes will be a rehashing of the whole "check/tip" scenario and how annoying things have become".
Actually, I think that it's silly for something like that to become the "topic of conversation" for the next 20 minutes, or that you don't see that the restaurant is doing exactly what you want them to do - take tipping out of your hands. We're damed if we do and damned if we don't in your world, I guess.
"And yes sometimes it does linger a little while after leaving whether it's been brought to the manager's attention or not. Human nature".
For a few humans, at least. The rest just get on with living. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2928
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 12:50 pm: |
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"If I'm getting paid well, I wouldn't care if they paid me salary, hourly or with auto-grat. Under the current system, the customer get's to choose my level of service".
This is the purest expression of the free market that you are likely ever to see short of a straight bartering system. The market and the consumer have directly determined what we are paid. The consumer generally pays us what they think we are worth. I don't understand why a few customers want someone else determining it for them, but I guess it takes all types.
If the system were changed and I had to take a pay cut independent of the amount of business that I was doing, I'd be gone in a flash. I'm already being paid what I'm worth. Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail. I'll make about the same amount of money for far less stress and hassle. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 541
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 02:26 pm: |
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Voz said:
However we have time and time expressed what details would need to be reviewed on a new system and what issues it would cause for the restaurants here in America, and it's completely ignored.
Neecey said:
I don't think it's been ignored. I think it's just expressed that higer prices as well as whatever changes that come about wouldn't be a travesty that can't be adjusted to.
Voz said:
Under the new system most people on this board is pushing for, you're taking the control out of the customer (with a simple percentage) and putting it in the hands of the manager.
Neecey said:
Which is something that people deal with regarding almost every other industry.
Voz said:
If the hours have to be increased to meet the amount of money currently being made, then you'll have a lot of college kids looking for a new job.
Neecey said:
Which is what a lot of college kids had to do that used to work at the Gap with me when the company decided to push for more hours from employees and made the schedule a whole lot less flexible.
Voz said:
Under the current system, the customer get's to choose my level of service.
Neceey said:
This isn't some freeing, refreshing power that it gets painted to be. It really, really isn't such a fabulous luxury.
Voz said:
But if the income is much lower, or my hours are much longer; then I'd rather stay with the current system and let customers decide my outcome.
Neecey said:
Which totally makes sense and it understandable.
Teleburst said:
Of course not. So why bother "imagining" it in the first place?
Neecey said:
Cause it proves a point about how bothersome it really is. If this practice were applied to everything we do in a day then it would be daunting. I mean something that's considered a luxury (being able to control what you will pay for a service) shouldn't seem daunting when applied to more details of your day wouldn't you think.
Teleburst said:
How is it "sneaky" if it's right there on the bill? Every guest should look at the bill.
Neecey said:
Are you seriously gonna play ignorance to the point? We KNOW a lot of people just glance at the total then write in a tip on the charge slip which doesn't include the breakdown. We KNOW a lot of people wouldn't catch that and it should be noted on the menu as well not JUST the receipt.
Teleburst said:
Isn't that what you want?
Neecey said:
No.
Teleburst said:
Now you don't have to worry about the tip. You simply sign the credit card slip or pay cash for the "total bill". I'd think you'd be celebrating that and they'd now have a customer for life.
Neecey said:
Well you would be wrong which is nothing new. There you go creating this fictional poster with a different agenda. This proves that you really don't read my posts because I've stated what I would like to see happen. Which is a set wage. I dislike autograts. I clarified that before when it came into question. A the very best I would at least like to know ahead of time that it would be applied and would like it to be applied appropriatly. This is what I've had happen:
An autograt applied with a party of two the reasoning being that it was after 9pm and all meals had it applied after this time.
An autograt applied with a party of (barely) six when it should be 8
A 20% autograt with a party of 9.
So much to keep up with and all because people want to make sure the server doesn't get stiffed. Hey here's an idea, pay them a freaking wage. I'm tired of dodging stupid stuff like the above. At least with a wage (and whatever menu prices) my one and only decision and responsibility would be deciding whether I can handle the price BEFORE I walk in and start my dining experience.
Teleburst said:
For a few humans, at least. The rest just get on with living.
Neecey said:
You know every moment in someone's life is important. This tactic some use of minimizing what some may consider relevant nuisances in the course of the day is a shallow way of thinking. When I work I don't assume an extra minute waiting on line is no big deal for the customer. I imagine an appointment they may need to get to or a something along those lines so that I don't forget that other people's time is something I shouldn't take for granted. This get over it mentality that's thinly veiled is some of your posts are still wave of the hand explanations that don't take other's appreciation of their own time into account. But giving that Boo Hoo get on with living reaction is quite helpful though.
Teleburst said:
I'm already being paid what I'm worth.
Neecey said:
Well this system allows a lot out there to get paid way above what THEIR service levels are worth. That's the part that seems unjust to me.
Teleburst said:
Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail. I'll make about the same amount of money for far less stress and hassle.
Neecey said:
Make the same amount of money? If you mean the same amount of the money new system would have you at then maybe but I doubt it cause retail doesn't pay as much as your industry and probably still wouldn't even if your industry were to change to a wage system.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 17, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2929
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 09:34 am: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Of course not. So why bother "imagining" it in the first place?
Neecey said:
Cause it proves a point about how bothersome it really is".
It "proves" no such thing. that would be like me saying that we should do away with sales clerks because "imagine how it would be if everytime you wanted to buy something in a store, you had to have a clerk get it for you. Imagaine what a waste of time and annoying it would be if the clerk had to get you your detergent or your Campbell's soup".
"Teleburst said:
How is it "sneaky" if it's right there on the bill? Every guest should look at the bill.
Neecey said:
Are you seriously gonna play ignorance to the point? We KNOW a lot of people just glance at the total then write in a tip on the charge slip which doesn't include the breakdown".
Then that's *their* problem. Are you advocating that people shouldn't look at their bill?
"Teleburst said:
Isn't that what you want?
Neecey said:
No."
So, we put you down as against automatic service charges. So the *only* thing that you are in favor of is adding 25 - 30% (or more) to the price of each menu item. Thank you for clarifying that.
"Teleburst said:
Now you don't have to worry about the tip. You simply sign the credit card slip or pay cash for the "total bill". I'd think you'd be celebrating that and they'd now have a customer for life.
Neecey said:
Well you would be wrong which is nothing new. There you go creating this fictional poster with a different agenda. This proves that you really don't read my posts because I've stated what I would like to see happen. Which is a set wage. I dislike autograts. I clarified that before when it came into question".
It would have been nice if you had clarified it in this thread when I asked about it.
Why are you against automatic service charges instead of tipping, especially if tipping were completely ablolished? Why would it be a bad thing in your mind? I'm just curious. After all, adding an equal amount to the price of each item would be like a "hidden" service charge. At least with an autograt, you know how much you're paying for service and how much you're paying for the actual item, *and* how much you're paying for the entire bill. No more judging, no need to care what the server is making, no concenrn about the restaurant raking off most of the excess and not paying servers what they are worth (especially if they changed the law to make restaurants keep their hands off of service charges like they do tips now).
"So much to keep up with and all because people want to make sure the server doesn't get stiffed. Hey here's an idea, pay them a freaking wage. I'm tired of dodging stupid stuff like the above. At least with a wage (and whatever menu prices) my one and only decision and responsibility would be deciding whether I can handle the price BEFORE I walk in and start my dining experience".
So you really *don't* care about the server's wage. That's cool. But it seems like you're being disengenuous when you say things like "no need to care what the server is making" because this isn't a true concern of yours.
"Teleburst said:
I'm already being paid what I'm worth.
Neecey said:
Well this system allows a lot out there to get paid way above what THEIR service levels are worth".
Only if someone *wants* to pay them beyond what they are worth. I'd maintain that the guest determines what they are worth every single time they tip, unless they simply make a mistake in leaving what they wanted to (by misadding or something).
"That's the part that seems unjust to me".
What seems unjust to me is the customer not knowing how much they're paying for service as they would if the service charge was bundled. As much as you'd like to deny it, this isn't the same level of service as in retail. This isn't a chance possibility that you might have to help a random person for 30 minutes every couple of weeks or something. This is close personal attention for 30 minutes to 3+ hours every single time.
"Teleburst said:
Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail. I'll make about the same amount of money for far less stress and hassle.
Neecey said:
Make the same amount of money? If you mean the same amount of the money new system would have you at then maybe but I doubt it cause retail doesn't pay as much as your industry and probably still wouldn't even if your industry were to change to a wage system.
That's what I'm saying - if I got paid less than I'm making now (especially as a typical $15 an hour server), I'd probably be making close to what the typical retail/sales worker made - especially if I could work two jobs, as some people I know do but is almost impossible to do now. As far as me dropping down to retail from my *current* position, I've got the requisite experience to be a supervisor or manager, not just a clerk, so even my restaurant dropped me down to $15 an hour (which would be a significant drop from my current income), I'd still be able to work a few more hours at a supervisory or managerial position at $30k a year and I'd probably still have the ability to work another 10 - 20 hours a week at another job to make up the difference if I had to. More hours than now? Yep? But far less stressful ones, that's for sure. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 10:57 am: |
|
Well this system allows a lot out there to get paid way above what THEIR service levels are worth.
I'm beginning to understand why the debate and the opposition of Tips vs Wages.
You don't know the number of times I have been a customer for retail and wonder how people can even hold a job. Bank I used to work for, people making 6 figures and bonuses and they suck at their job. People in Fastfood, DMV, Cops, Doctors who make you wait, Nurses who treat you like crap, etc.
I could go on with the people who get overpaid for what they do and every job/career has them.
Just like servers, you'll have the good ones who deserve the 20% tips they make and sometimes you'll get the ones who don't. Well guess what? Compared to ALL of the other people who treat you like crap at the DMV or at the Doctor's office, you get to decide the outcome of the server's pay, not the bill getting slapped on the table.
Pretty cool, huh? I think so.
But instead, you push for acceptance of a system that would take that control out of your hands and the bill that get's slapped down on the table would have to be paid unless you complain to the manager. I'm not one for ending the night dining out with friends and family to complain that a server failed to bring me a refill or forget to ring up the app.
With a simple pen stroke, you're able to measure the service and there by letting the server know how they did without having to jeapordize their job with a complaint to management. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2930
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 11:12 am: |
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I guess people like Neecey value mindless acceptance over control in some instances.
That's a valid approach to life. I prefer having a little more control personally. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 542
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 06:50 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
Then that's *their* problem. Are you advocating that people shouldn't look at their bill?
Neecey said:
It's nice to see that your are agreeing it IS a problem.
Teleburst said:
So, we put you down as against automatic service charges. So the *only* thing that you are in favor of is adding 25 - 30% (or more) to the price of each menu item. Thank you for clarifying that.
Neecey said:
Those are your make believe numbers and not something factual.
Teleburst said:
It would have been nice if you had clarified it in this thread when I asked about it.
Neecey said:
Nope sorry, not this time you need too much rewind and review.
Teleburst said:
Why are you against automatic service charges instead of tipping, especially if tipping were completely ablolished? Why would it be a bad thing in your mind?
Neecey said:
Go back and reread a number of previous threads.
The answers are all there.
Teleburst said:
After all, adding an equal amount to the price of each item would be like a "hidden" service charge.
Neecey said:
No it would just be the price. Such a simple concept. Product. Price. Pay. Done. Have a nice day.
Teleburst said:
At least with an autograt, you know how much you're paying for service and how much you're paying for the actual item, *and* how much you're paying for the entire bill.
Neecey said:
Because I don't need all that.
Teleburst said:
So you really *don't* care about the server's wage.
Neecey said:
Not anymore than I care about the girl down the street at the gas station. I like the part where everyone is doing what they need to do in order to earn a wage without invovling me into it to such an intimate degree.
Teleburst said:
Only if someone *wants* to pay them beyond what they are worth.
Neecey said:
We've already touched on the *expectation* angle.
Teleburst said:
What seems unjust to me is the customer not knowing how much they're paying for service as they would if the service charge was bundled.
Neecey said:
Well I'm not getting a break down about how much of the price of my jeans goes to company salary. I do just fine with that reality.
Teleburst said:
As much as you'd like to deny it, this isn't the same level of service as in retail.
Neecey said:
Really? You don't say? Well we still disagree about this detail.
Teleburst said:
This isn't a chance possibility that you might have to help a random person for 30 minutes every couple of weeks or something. This is close personal attention for 30 minutes to 3+ hours every single time.
Neecey said:
Hmmnnn interesting point of view.
Teleburst said:
I'd still be able to work a few more hours at a supervisory or managerial position at $30k a year and I'd probably still have the ability to work another 10 - 20 hours a week at another job to make up the difference if I had to.
Neecey said:
You're right except for one thing. You wouldn't be able to work anywhere else. Most retail supervisory/managerial spots require you to have an open availability 7 days a week making the scheduled work week different every week. Sure you'd get two days off a week but not the same days and there's really no way to set aside days and hours of *unavailability* in order to give yourself set hours/days for another job.
Teleburst said:
More hours than now? Yep? But far less stressful ones, that's for sure.
Neceey said:
Yeah, it's funny how people think that.
Voz said:
Compared to ALL of the other people who treat you like crap at the DMV or at the Doctor's office, you get to decide the outcome of the server's pay, not the bill getting slapped on the table.
Neecey said:
Again, NOT the superhero power I would've asked for had the genie popped out the bottle. Tit for tat? Is that what it amounts to? Yeah, people suck but at none at those other places you described with the crappy workers have I ever had the thought, "boy I wish I could dock their pay". That's not some sort of pleasant option that I as a customer want to cling to.
Voz said:
But instead, you push for acceptance of a system that would take that control out of your hands and the bill that get's slapped down on the table would have to be paid unless you complain to the manager.
Neecey said:
But what you just described isn't such a hard task.
Voz said:
I'm not one for ending the night dining out with friends and family to complain that a server failed to bring me a refill or forget to ring up the app.
Neecey said:
Yeah you wouldn't be alone with that sentiment.
Voz said:
With a simple pen stroke, you're able to measure the service and there by letting the server know how they did without having to jeapordize their job with a complaint to management.
Neecey said:
If I wanted to evaluate job performance or determine wages I'd apply for a job in an HR Department.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 18, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 543
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 08:33 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
After all, adding an equal amount to the price of each item would be like a "hidden" service charge.
Neecey said:
You know what's funny about this? As it is now the price on the menu goes towards the cooks/chefs pay. I don't consider that a hidden service charge and what he does affects my dining experience as well.
Voz said:
you get to decide the outcome of the server's pay, not the bill getting slapped on the table.
Neecey said:
Same with this. If that steak comes out completely overcooked I don't get to penalize the chefs pay do I? I mean it will probably get taken off the bill or replaced with another but I don't get to "with a simple pen stroke" affect his wage.
If currently, I can accept that the menu prices accounts for the wages for the chef in the back why then, wouldn't I be able to manage that same understanding for every other employee of the SAME establishment in the SAME industry?
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 18, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 544
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 08:41 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
I guess people like Neecey value mindless acceptance over control in some instances.
Neecey said:
It's not about that. It's about not being required to do something I dislike doing during an activity designed for enjoyment. I find it slightly ironic. And that's pretty much what sparks the rest of it. Simple I know. Hee:-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 08:35 am: |
|
Same with this. If that steak comes out completely overcooked I don't get to penalize the chefs pay do I? I mean it will probably get taken off the bill or replaced with another but I don't get to "with a simple pen stroke" affect his wage.
Actually, yes. When you've received an item you're refusing to eat because of it's poor quality, the item becomes comped. This effects food costs, which in turn effects the bonuses for the Chef and Sous Chef. Does it effect the cooks at Chili's. No, unless they have a kitchen manager. However, if this same cook is overcooking alot, then he/she loses that position or possibly their job. I would say it effects their income.
The server is more of an instant impact or reward. It doesn't trickle through the books or gets measured over time with food costs or liquor costs. The tip is an immediate reward or punishment for the service received.
Look at it this way. How can you measure the service on someone going beyond the amount of the food? For example: Server working at Chili's does an outstanding job making a great meal for a group of graduating students with their parents. Drinks are refilled, free dessert given and just really having a great time. Server is friendly, fun and happy. Current system, customer can reward the server what he wants to reward. Your system, server is paid 12.00 hr.
Different server working in Per Se in New York. Group of students with some rich parents come in for graduation celebration. Server keeps the drinks refilled, but nothing special. They have a nice time, but the server is basically being an order taker. Customer can reward the server in the current system for doing his job. Your system, server is paid 25.00 hr an hour.
The job is basically the same except for details and knowledge that needs to be known. But in one case, the server did an outstanding job, but with your system, the server is making basic wages, while the other server is getting paid much higher for a sub-par level of service.
Sure, managers can step in, but the server didn't do anything wrong. He just didn't go above and beyond. Manager could reward the Chili's server, but we all know that salary has a cap. It's not like I can work at Chili's for 15 years and expect to be making 30.00 hour before I retire. The Chili's server could leave and work for nicer restaurants, but who wants to do that? Most people like working for the same company and don't want to move around every 2-3 years.
*shrug* Like you said, it's all based on perception of the situation. You don't like the control of paying someone for their service, while others feel it's fine to do. The difference is that we know the issues it would cause if servers would go to an hourly wage, while you only think about the 'feeling' of the situation in your view. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 545
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 11:19 am: |
|
Voz said:
Actually, yes. When you've received an item you're refusing to eat because of it's poor quality, the item becomes comped. This effects food costs, which in turn effects the bonuses for the Chef and Sous Chef. Does it effect the cooks at Chili's. No, unless they have a kitchen manager. However, if this same cook is overcooking alot, then he/she loses that position or possibly their job. I would say it effects their income.
Neecey said:
But that's a process of the establishment and how they reward their employees. Like I said it isn't with a simple pen stroke. It's also not an immediate result like when I just don't tip the server. What you described is an evaluation of the chefs performance by management not by me which is my overall point. When I send back the steak I'm not the one deciding whether or not that chef gets a bonus or not. I just sent it back cause it's cooked wrong.
Voz said:
The server is more of an instant impact or reward. It doesn't trickle through the books or gets measured over time with food costs or liquor costs. The tip is an immediate reward or punishment for the service received.
Neecey said:
Yes, that's understood but if this evaluation process you described can be done with the chefs what's so hard about applying it to ALL employees of the establishment?
Voz said:
Look at it this way. How can you measure the service on someone going beyond the amount of the food?
Neecey said:
It's called getting a raise after time and promotions with higher pay. A lot of people show the goods when they start a job, are consistent all the while getting paid whatever low starting wage they've started with. Then move up from there.
Voz said:
The job is basically the same except for details and knowledge that needs to be known. But in one case, the server did an outstanding job, but with your system, the server is making basic wages, while the other server is getting paid much higher for a sub-par level of service.
Neecey said:
It's not my system. It's a system that's is used in the workplace. It's a system that doesn't lean on the public to directly pay their employees. You think because the tipping system gets around people getting paid for sub par work its more preferrable? As with all systems out there people do end up getting more than they deserve whether it's by wages or by getting tips out of customers with guilt issues.
Besides as an employee other employees are none of my business. I need to worry about my work, my performance and my raise and what I feel I'm worth come negotiation time. It's up to me to ask for and earn that promotion when it becomes available while snatching it away from the sub par employee that's senior to me. Now I'm making more. See how that plays out?
Voz said:
Sure, managers can step in, but the server didn't do anything wrong. He just didn't go above and beyond. Manager could reward the Chili's server, but we all know that salary has a cap. It's not like I can work at Chili's for 15 years and expect to be making 30.00 hour before I retire. The Chili's server could leave and work for nicer restaurants, but who wants to do that? Most people like working for the same company and don't want to move around every 2-3 years.
Neecey said:
Well salaries have caps that's nothing new. I mean of course as it is tipping is great because a starting wage with tips amount to the equivolent of other industries that actually require a good amount of strive, determination, patience and time to reach a desired position and wage . Positions that some feel will allow them to live the lifestyle they are aiming for. Some spend some of this drive starting at college earning them a better starting position and wage in the beginning then working the rest of the way up. Others just jump in and work their hardest and after awhile use their time, service and experience as a bargaining tool over time.
Maybe that seems like a lot to some but most people accept that as what comes with the territory when entering into the workplace. Sure not everyone goes this route but it's the most commonly traveled path. Other routes usually come with risks and great immediate rewards. I've always liked the more structured path. Usually because the the other option involves too much dependence on a large number of other people which would become burdensome. To me and to those around me.
Voz said:
The difference is that we know the issues it would cause if servers would go to an hourly wage, while you only think about the 'feeling' of the situation in your view.
Neecey said:
I don't only think about MY *feeling* of the situation. I've actually pointed out details that are actual relevant issues regarding the system. Yes it's based mainly on my personal annoyance with the system but that doesn't define my complete understanding of it in general.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2932
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 11:40 am: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Then that's *their* problem. Are you advocating that people shouldn't look at their bill?
Neecey said:
It's nice to see that your are agreeing it IS a problem".
Yes, a problem not of the tipping system's, server's or restaurant's making. As long as you look at the bill, which you should be doing anyway, you're good.
"Teleburst said:
So, we put you down as against automatic service charges. So the *only* thing that you are in favor of is adding 25 - 30% (or more) to the price of each menu item. Thank you for clarifying that.
Neecey said:
Those are your make believe numbers and not something factual".
I have some basis for my numbers (I know, you think facts suck). It's *you* who doesn't have any basis whatsoever for whatever price increase you think is going to happen. You've just got an uninformed "feeling".
"Teleburst said:
It would have been nice if you had clarified it in this thread when I asked about it.
Neecey said:
Nope sorry, not this time you need too much rewind and review".
Well, now we know. The only thing that would make you happy is a wage. Guess you'll have to stick to Per Se or fast food.
"Teleburst said:
Why are you against automatic service charges instead of tipping, especially if tipping were completely abolished? Why would it be a bad thing in your mind?
Neecey said:
Go back and reread a number of previous threads.
The answers are all there".
Nope, sorry. I'll just put you down as not willing to hold a conversation.
"Teleburst said:
After all, adding an equal amount to the price of each item would be like a "hidden" service charge.
Neecey said:
No it would just be the price. Such a simple concept. Product. Price. Pay. Done. Have a nice day".
You're simply wrong. Sorry.
"Teleburst said:
At least with an autograt, you know how much you're paying for service and how much you're paying for the actual item, *and* how much you're paying for the entire bill.
Neecey said:
Because I don't need all that".
No, you need to pretend that you know exactly how much you're going to spend before you even walk into a restaurant, even though the rest of us actually don't know until we look at the menu or hear the daily specials.
"Teleburst said:
So you really *don't* care about the server's wage.
Neecey said:
Not anymore than I care about the girl down the street at the gas station".
Then quit pretending that the restaurant paying the server's wage is "important".
"Teleburst said:
What seems unjust to me is the customer not knowing how much they're paying for service as they would if the service charge was bundled.
Neecey said:
Well I'm not getting a break down about how much of the price of my jeans goes to company salary. I do just fine with that reality".
Yeah, but you don't really provide very much service either. Oh, you might have to help a random person or two for a few minutes. Big whoop.
"Teleburst said:
This isn't a chance possibility that you might have to help a random person for 30 minutes every couple of weeks or something. This is close personal attention for 30 minutes to 3+ hours every single time.
Neecey said:
Hmmnnn interesting point of view".
Thank you.
"Teleburst said:
I'd still be able to work a few more hours at a supervisory or managerial position at $30k a year and I'd probably still have the ability to work another 10 - 20 hours a week at another job to make up the difference if I had to.
Neecey said:
You're right except for one thing. You wouldn't be able to work anywhere else. Most retail supervisory/managerial spots require you to have an open availability 7 days a week making the scheduled work week different every week".
Except that I know people who do exactly that. I've even known retail managers who went to school part time. Sorry.
"Teleburst said:
More hours than now? Yep? But far less stressful ones, that's for sure.
Neceey said:
Yeah, it's funny how people think that".
Yeah, people who have done BOTH. Let's see, which of us has done both jobs? So which of us has the most basis for making an informed comment on this?
"Voz said:
But instead, you push for acceptance of a system that would take that control out of your hands and the bill that get's slapped down on the table would have to be paid unless you complain to the manager.
Neecey said:
But what you just described isn't such a hard task".
Neither is tipping, even though you make it out as such.
"Teleburst said:
After all, adding an equal amount to the price of each item would be like a "hidden" service charge.
Neecey said:
You know what's funny about this? As it is now the price on the menu goes towards the cooks/chefs pay. I don't consider that a hidden service charge and what he does affects my dining experience as well".
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position". The bricklayer gets paid per hour and the person who sells the house gets paid a commission. Nothing weird about that.
"If currently, I can accept that the menu prices accounts for the wages for the chef in the back why then, wouldn't I be able to manage that same understanding for every other employee of the SAME establishment in the SAME industry"?
Because they are different jobs. Servers are service/sales jobs. Kitchen workers are production jobs. Managers are managerial jobs. Servers get paid hourly plustips, cooks get paid by the hour, and managers, including chefs and sous chefs get paid a monthly or yearly salary. It's the same with many other industries as well. Might as well complain that you aren't paid the same way as your manager.
"It's about not being required to do something I dislike doing during an activity designed for enjoyment. I find it slightly ironic".
Sucks to be you. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 12:12 pm: |
|
Because they are different jobs. Servers are service/sales jobs. Kitchen workers are production jobs. Managers are managerial jobs. Servers get paid hourly plustips, cooks get paid by the hour, and managers, including chefs and sous chefs get paid a monthly or yearly salary. It's the same with many other industries as well. Might as well complain that you aren't paid the same way as your manager.
Teleburst did a great job explaining the pay scales for the people in the restaurant. Since the job functions are different, so are the forms of pay.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing retail into the equation as we have already discussed that the type of job is very different in style. I would assume that if customers were to start tipping people in retail, we would see message boards like this one on how much should be given, etc. However, customers DON'T tip retail personal, so you're going to make a set wage.
Since customers DO tip servers, the system is there. Forcing a change to take place and have everyone stop tipping would impact the industry in more ways than one. And this change will only solve the problem of what you 'feel' or think is 'guilt' if people don't leave a tip because they thought the service was weak.
Bottom line. People who think this, are weak. Sorry to be frank, but going around in circles is making me dizzy. If you can't go out to dinner or lunch, have a pleasant meal and figure out the level of service starting from average 15%, you've got issues.
I'm in the biz, tip higher than average, but I will still tip lower than average if the service is sub-par. I've only had once or twice where I thought the service was poor and most of the time it's because it being extremely busy. I don't feel guilty when I walk out and I don't worry about the server getting mad. I hope they do get mad.
I'm not deciding the money the server makes, he or she is by the level of service I am getting. Just as you don't decide the cashier's income, DMV or the cop on patrol; quit worrying about how much the server IS making and just reward/punish the server for the service they gave starting with 15% on sub-total for average service.
So quit thinking that the power you have is such a burden when eating out and decide on one of three things.
-Eat at a place that doesn't involve tipping.
-Don't eat out and cook at home.
-Get a backbone and measure the service you receive and stick to it. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 546
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 03:10 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
Yes, a problem not of the tipping system's, server's or restaurant's making. As long as you look at the bill, which you should be doing anyway, you're good.
Neecey said:
And when one catch's an inappropriate tip inclusion then the customer has to spend time and energy rectifying it. What a lovely system.
Teleburst said:
I have some basis for my numbers (I know, you think facts suck).
Neecey said:
Really you do? The calculations you make over and over again are hypotheticals. Those are not facts. Repeating something million times doesn't *poof* turn them into facts.
Teleburst said:
You've just got an uninformed "feeling".
Neecey said:
And a lot of basic logic. :-)
Teleburst said:
Well, now we know. The only thing that would make you happy is a wage. Guess you'll have to stick to Per Se or fast food.
Neecey said:
Not really, I actually had a lovely lunch yesterday with friends at a greek restaurant I like. :-)
Teleburst said:
Nope, sorry. I'll just put you down as not willing to hold a conversation.
Neecey said:
Okay you do that. I can't stop you this is American after all. ;-)
Teleburst said:
You're simply wrong. Sorry.
Neecey said:
Well I guess we simply disagree once again. :-)
Teleburst said:
No, you need to pretend that you know exactly how much you're going to spend before you even walk into a restaurant
Neecey said:
Why would that be pretending? That's odd. I have a general knowledge of what I intend to spend. Would be nice for it not to be up in the air from 5-20%.
Teleburst said:
Then quit pretending that the restaurant paying the server's wage is "important".
Neecey said:
Huh? It is important because I don't want to be responsible for it. How come that's so confusing for you?
Teleburst said:
Yeah, but you don't really provide very much service either. Oh, you might have to help a random person or two for a few minutes. Big whoop.
Neecey said:
What did this have to with the point I made about the price of the jeans and the relationship to the employees salary not mattering to me? It's funny how you keep trying to bait me with this whole retail angle. You've been trying for a few posts now. Very amusing. :-)
Teleburst said:
Except that I know people who do exactly that. I've even known retail managers who went to school part time. Sorry.
Neecey said:
Uhm sure okay. Well in NY there would be no possible way to come in with that sort of limited schedule unless of course your second job would mainly be in the late am hours. I had a friend who was a manager at the Armani store and still held his full time job as Manhattan doorman. Thing is, his doorman shift was usually an overnight shift into the morning. I mean it can be done but I guarantee it would be with a lot of coordinating, juggling and uhhmmm stress.
Teleburst said:
Yeah, people who have done BOTH. Let's see, which of us has done both jobs? So which of us has the most basis for making an informed comment on this?
Neecey said:
I just said it was funny that people think this. I think it's funny to hold such an opinion and suggest its so simple. Whether you believe it or not is not the issue. It's the fact that I find it funny that's all. :-D
Teleburst said:
Neither is tipping, even though you make it out as such.
Neecey said:
Didn't say it was hard I think it's annoying and an unnecessary system.
Teleburst said:
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position".
Neecey said:
Wow! So because of the word service it changes everything? Goodness me.
Teleburst said:
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position". The bricklayer gets paid per hour and the person who sells the house gets paid a commission.
Neecey said:
And in retail I'm in a *service* position (I"m not producting the jeans am I?) and I get a wage.
Teleburst said:
Because they are different jobs. Servers are service/sales jobs.
Neecey said:
There are service sales jobs that use the wage system. As I've pointed out above.
Teleburst said:
Sucks to be you.
Neecey said:
No it's not, I'm fabulous! ;-)
Voz said:
Teleburst did a great job explaining the pay scales for the people in the restaurant. Since the job functions are different, so are the forms of pay.
Neecey said:
I agree about the different rates however the same person/company is usually involved in paying
it's employees. With tipping the wage goes outside of this structure unnecessarily.
Voz said:
I'm not sure why you keep bringing retail into the equation as we have already discussed that the type of job is very different in style.
Neecey said:
I didn't. Teleburst made a reference about Macy's in response to my comment about applying tipping to everything and seeing how many complaints we'd start hearing about it's nuisance.. We lightly touched on retail examples after that. I mentioned the girl at the gas station to try and stay away from retail. I also mentioned MY experience at the Gap to respond to something about inflexibility affecting college students who worked there.
Voz said:
Forcing a change to take place and have everyone stop tipping would impact the industry in more ways than one
Neecey said:
I'm sure it would and I understand your position on NOT changing the system. I understand the downfalls and I also understand the lack of urgency people in the biz would feel for the *minor* negatives surrounding the system. I get it I just don't get the argument that tries to minimize the obvious pros that the other side see as being relevant for changing the system.
Voz said:
If you can't go out to dinner or lunch, have a pleasant meal and figure out the level of service starting from average 15%, you've got issues.
Neecey said:
I can do all those things and I'm not having a panic attack at the doorway of every restaurant I enter. How ridiculous. I'm simply putting a voice to a relevant point of view. It's like the general concensus is to just shut up about it. We've beaten everyone else into submission so don't go starting any uproars although there are plenty of reasons to. Yes, the reasons are minor when looked at individually but group all these details together and you start to wonder why we condone this sloppy, unstructured system that has people making as much (to start) as people in positions that require 4 or more years of college and a lot of hard work. It's path of least resistant not some universal preference to tipping. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :-O
It's not about being weak. It's about the ridiculous guidelines that are different everywhere you go. You can preach til you're blue in the face about it always boiling down to 15% for average 20% for above and 10% for sub par. That's just the figuritive scale. The real scale is based on all those *weak* minded people who still tip when they shouldn't and give in to the 20% is the new 15% mentality that has IN FACT infiltrated the masses. You can disagree that this is what's really happening but you'd be wrong. I don't have any polls sorry but as everyone knows I don't take kindly to *official* data cause I question just how *official* certain data really is.
Voz said:
I don't feel guilty when I walk out and I don't worry about the server getting mad. I hope they do get mad.
Neecey said:
Weak, overly generous, sensitive..call it what you want?? Tomato, Tomahto. I know there are plenty of us out there. Polls or no polls. :-0
voz said:
quit worrying about how much the server IS making and just reward/punish the server for the service they gave starting with 15% on sub-total for average service.
Neecey said:
By being required to leave the server tip I have no choice BUT to worry about how much the server is making.
Voz said:
So quit thinking that the power you have is such a burden when eating out and decide on one of three things.
-Eat at a place that doesn't involve tipping.
-Don't eat out and cook at home.
-Get a backbone and measure the service you receive and stick to it.
Neecey said:
I noticed you didn't include
-just stiff the server and go on about your merry way. I mean that is also an option isn't it? Maybe my backbone says that the price of the meal covers the cost of my complete experience at the restaurant?
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 19, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 03:34 pm: |
|
I noticed you didn't include
-just stiff the server and go on about your merry way. I mean that is also an option isn't it? Maybe my backbone says that the price of the meal covers the cost of my complete experience at the restaurant?
Well, yeah; that would suck....8p
However, I can count on one hand for the two years of working at the current restaurant where someone walked out without signing the copy, etc.
Given the ratio, my chances of making more money than less is better than an hourly wage. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 549
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 05:13 pm: |
|
Voz said:
Given the ratio, my chances of making more money than less is better than an hourly wage.
Neecey said:
I believe it and I've always understood where you were coming from. There are more guarantees in the finer dining places but not everyone can afford these places and are stuck with the chains that you mention often. The system as it is now allows for pretty random experiences from the chains even the middle ground places.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2937
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 11:57 am: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Yes, a problem not of the tipping system's, server's or restaurant's making. As long as you look at the bill, which you should be doing anyway, you're good.
Neecey said:
And when one catch's an inappropriate tip inclusion then the customer has to spend time and energy rectifying it. What a lovely system".
How much time does it take to not fill in a tip?
"Teleburst said:
I have some basis for my numbers (I know, you think facts suck).
Neecey said:
Really you do"?
Yep.
"Teleburst said:
Well, now we know. The only thing that would make you happy is a wage. Guess you'll have to stick to Per Se or fast food.
Neecey said:
Not really, I actually had a lovely lunch yesterday with friends at a greek restaurant I like. :-)"
You mean tipping didn't ruin either your lunch *or* your day? Praise the Lord!
"Teleburst said:
No, you need to pretend that you know exactly how much you're going to spend before you even walk into a restaurant
Neecey said:
Why would that be pretending? That's odd. I have a general knowledge of what I intend to spend. Would be nice for it not to be up in the air from 5-20%".
Sorry it's so difficult for you.
"Teleburst said:
Except that I know people who do exactly that. I've even known retail managers who went to school part time. Sorry.
Neecey said:
Uhm sure okay. Well in NY there would be no possible way to come in with that sort of limited schedule unless of course your second job would mainly be in the late am hours. I had a friend who was a manager at the Armani store and still held his full time job as Manhattan doorman. Thing is, his doorman shift was usually an overnight shift into the morning".
So, you were wrong when you said, "You're right except for one thing. You wouldn't be able to work anywhere else". Unfortunately, you can't find the words to say, "I was wrong".
"Teleburst said:
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position".
Neecey said:
Wow! So because of the word service it changes everything?
Yep. Although it's more the word "production" that comes to bear.
"Teleburst said:
Sucks to be you.
Neecey said:
No it's not, I'm fabulous! ;-)"
Fabulously put-upon by tipping...
"Voz said:
Teleburst did a great job explaining the pay scales for the people in the restaurant. Since the job functions are different, so are the forms of pay.
Neecey said:
I agree about the different rates however the same person/company is usually involved in paying
it's employees. With tipping the wage goes outside of this structure unnecessarily".
Capitalism is a beautiful and flexible thing. Many Americans outside of the tipping occupations aren't really paid by their employers. They are paid by the commission that the consumer pays. It's just "passed along".
" Neecey said:
I believe it and I've always understood where you were coming from. There are more guarantees in the finer dining places but not everyone can afford these places and are stuck with the chains that you mention often. The system as it is now allows for pretty random experiences from the chains even the middle ground places".
It's not as random as you seem to think - but then again, you have nothing to base this completely untrue statement on.
PS, "I can do all those things and I'm not having a panic attack at the doorway of every restaurant I enter".
Your reams of hysterical and hyperbolic words on this issue belies this statement. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 12:50 pm: |
|
Well, yes. In the finer dining restaurants, there is less to be concerned on the PPA and the average tip compared to a diner with a lower PPA and customers who or may not tip.
Each restaurant has it's ups and downs. As a server who starts off in a diner or low PPA type place will have less to worry about the 'skill level' required to be in the field.
As you move higher in PPA, more is expected out of you and mistakes will be met with swift discharge instead of a slap on the hand.
What you make in terms of money has alot to do with PPA, business level (busy or slow), and customers you wait on.
I'm sure there are servers who can average more in a month at the chains than I can in the restaurant I work at. Things that could cause this is the market, which we are feeling right now, and the type of customers. Some servers like being busy and wait on 30+ guests. I've done that and it gets old quickly. You're beat, tired, smell like fajiti's and get a little tired of dealing with different types of people.
Place I'm in now is fine dining, but not ultra like Per Se or the other restaurants that have a fixed menu. PPA can bring a nice check to the table, but if people are not willing to spend the money on products (high dollar items, bottles of wine) then your tip average goes down.
We get lucky once in awhile, but it doesn't happen alot.
I'm not just looking at it from the Server's perceptions, but also the managers. We don't talk alot about how difficult it would be to run a restaurant if you're paying your waitstaff 12+ an hour. Teleburst has touched on it and I know it's been mentioned as one of the downfalls of paying per hour.
Just know that managers' job is to cut costs and save money. Their job depends on the numbers and if management was having to juggle 20 + servers and try to make them happy by paying them per hour and getting them the hours they need to make money, it would be a logistic nightmare and most restaurants would close within 6 months of such a policy put into place. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 550
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
How much time does it take to not fill in a tip?
Neceey said:
You're confused the example was about the 15% being include on the orignial receipt, generated by the register. Let's try and keep up shall we?
Teleburst said:
You mean tipping didn't ruin either your lunch *or* your day? Praise the Lord!
Neecey said:
Neither does taking out the garbage but it's a chore I'd rather NOT do.
Teleburst said:
So, you were wrong when you said, "You're right except for one thing. You wouldn't be able to work anywhere else". Unfortunately, you can't find the words to say, "I was wrong".
Neceey said:
Well you'd be wrong about the less stress it would cause if you would need to add extra hours doing something else as well then it would definitely be a lot of juggling. Sounds pretty stressful.
Teleburst said:
Yep. Although it's more the word "production" that comes to bear.
Neecey said:
Funny how you missed the part about retail being a service position but is on a wage system. I don't make the jeans now do I? I'm telling you all these stretches are so typical coming from you.
Telebrust said:
Fabulously put-upon by tipping...
Neecey said:
No, just fabulous. ;-)
Teleburst said:
Capitalism is a beautiful and flexible thing. Many Americans outside of the tipping occupations aren't really paid by their employers. They are paid by the commission that the consumer pays. It's just "passed along".
Neecey said:
Through a process that doesn't involve the consumers direct input. Geez that seems like such an easy point to understand and yet....
Teleburst said:
It's not as random as you seem to think - but then again, you have nothing to base this completely untrue statement on
Neecey said:
Completely untrue?? Tsk, tsk Teleburst. There you go again telling other people what their experiences have been. Stick to your own experiences and stop trying to tell others what their experiences have been. You need to work on that. I'm sorry but you can't convince me that I've imagined what I've seen in my 15 yrs of dining out. In my experience it HAS been random and no it's not me so get another angle or get over it. It's also funny how you talk in absolutes all the time......"completely untrue statement" as if you would know what I'VE experienced...Amusing indeed.
Teleburst said:
Your reams of hysterical and hyperbolic words on this issue belies this statement.
Neecey said:
Hysterical?? Really?? You do talk in extremes don't you? Mercy me. :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 20, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 01:20 pm: |
|
I don't think tipping is going away because despite any "uncomfortable" feelings about it, the majority of customers do not want to lose control over paying for the service. Even the family guy at the pool didn't like losing control. He says he would have paid extra, then why didn't he? But he didn't out of spite because he didn't like having the power taken from him. If it wasn't automatic gratuity and, instead, a built-in charge into the menu items, he would be bitching about the high prices at that restaurant with probably not much consolation that he doesn't have to tip.
Yeah, I bet most people don't like to have to tip due to various reasons, but when it comes down to it, they'd rather they keep that power in their pocket. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2940
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 01:42 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
How much time does it take to not fill in a tip?
Neceey said:
You're confused the example was about the 15% being include on the orignial receipt, generated by the register. Let's try and keep up shall we"?
Are you dense? if there's an included service charge included, then you don't do anything else, unless you want to. If the service is poor, then you have to go to the manager and beg for your money back. And if the service is great, then, and only then shoud you fill in an additional tip.
"Teleburst said:
You mean tipping didn't ruin either your lunch *or* your day? Praise the Lord!
Neecey said:
Neither does taking out the garbage but it's a chore I'd rather NOT do".
Personally, I'd rather take out the garbage than suffer the alternative. I guess you're different.
Teleburst said:
So, you were wrong when you said, "You're right except for one thing. You wouldn't be able to work anywhere else". Unfortunately, you can't find the words to say, "I was wrong".
Neceey said:
Well you'd be wrong about the less stress it would cause if you would need to add extra hours doing something else as well then it would definitely be a lot of juggling. Sounds pretty stressful".
No more stressful than it is now, where I have to juggle a different schedule every week right now. Actually, the people I know who have done this in retail have a lot less stress because they set up permanent days off or permanent shifts at their primary job and then pick up additional hours elsewhere.
Teleburst said:
Yep. Although it's more the word "production" that comes to bear.
Neecey said:
Funny how you missed the part about retail being a service position but is on a wage system.
So? What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China? Maybe you missed the part that the "wage system" in retail is variable as well. You might start at $8 an hour or $12 an hour. You might or might not be eligble for sales bonuses or spiffs. this doesn't invalidate the "wage system" of retail. In fact, I know some people who work in retail who only get paid on commisssion.
"Telebrust said:
Fabulously put-upon by tipping...
Neecey said:
No, just fabulous. ;-)"
Fabulously annoyed by tipping.
"Teleburst said:
Capitalism is a beautiful and flexible thing. Many Americans outside of the tipping occupations aren't really paid by their employers. They are paid by the commission that the consumer pays. It's just "passed along".
Neecey said:
Through a process that doesn't involve the consumers direct input".
And is a "hidden charge".
"Geez that seems like such an easy point to understand and yet...."
"...I can't seem to understand it". Thought I'd finish your sentence for you.
Teleburst said:
It's not as random as you seem to think - but then again, you have nothing to base this completely untrue statement on
Neecey said:
Completely untrue?? Tsk, tsk Teleburst. There you go again telling other people what their experiences have been. Stick to your own experiences and stop trying to tell others what their experiences have been. You need to work on that. I'm sorry but you can't convince me that I've imagined what I've seen in my 15 yrs of dining out. In my experience it HAS been random and no it's not me so get another angle or get over it. It's also funny how you talk in absolutes all the time......"completely untrue statement" as if you would know what I'VE experienced...Amusing indeed".
How would you know how random a server's income is? there is a randomness but it comes mostly from which section you happen to get and how busy the restaurant is on a given day. The tip percentage that a server gets is pretty consistent. Don't forget that for 4 years, I had to montitor the tip percentages of my servers. And yes, I've got my own experiences to fall back on. It's only thousands and thousands of transactions.
Teleburst said:
Your reams of hysterical and hyperbolic words on this issue belies this statement.
Neecey said:
Hysterical?? Really??"
Yes, really. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2941
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 01:44 pm: |
|
"Yeah, I bet most people don't like to have to tip due to various reasons, but when it comes down to it, they'd rather they keep that power in their pocket".
Agreed. For most people. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 553
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 04:28 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
Are you dense? if there's an included service charge included, then you don't do anything else, unless you want to. If the service is poor, then you have to go to the manager and beg for your money back. And if the service is great, then, and only then shoud you fill in an additional tip.
Neecey said:
And let's say the tip needed to be 10%? Bueller...Bueller...
Teleburst said:
Actually, the people I know who have done this in retail have a lot less stress because they set up permanent days off or permanent shifts at their primary job and then pick up additional hours elsewhere.
Neecey said:
Those are VERY lucky people.
Teleburst said:
Fabulously annoyed by tipping.
Neecey said:
Fabulously annoying Teleburst.. Hee. ;-)
Teleburst said:
So? What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China?
Neecey said:
Okay we will do the rewind and review you need so much of:
Neecey said:
You know what's funny about this? As it is now the price on the menu goes towards the cooks/chefs pay. I don't consider that a hidden service charge and what he does affects my dining experience as well".
Teleburst responded:
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position". The bricklayer gets paid per hour and the person who sells the house gets paid a commission.
Neecey said:
"If currently, I can accept that the menu prices accounts for the wages for the chef in the back why then, wouldn't I be able to manage that same understanding for every other employee of the SAME establishment in the SAME industry"?
Teleburst responded:
Because they are different jobs. Servers are service/sales jobs. Kitchen workers are production jobs
Sounds to me the basis of this argument was that the reason the kitchen staff gets a wage because they produce something whereas the servers work for tip because its a service position. My point was that the menu prices cover the kitchen wage and I don't consider it a hidden charge and the price of the jeans I buy incorporate the salespersons wage into it and I deal with that just fine therefore if the system where to change I wouldn't consider a wage to the server built into the price a hidden charge either. That's what my point was so all of your different people get paid differently doesn't really amount to much.
Kris said:
Yeah, I bet most people don't like to have to tip due to various reasons, but when it comes down to it, they'd rather they keep that power in their pocket.
Neecey said:
I understand why people would believe that.
Teleburst said:
And is a "hidden charge".
Neecey said:
No just what common people believe to be the price of a product. Usually the only thing people care about.
Teleburst said:
How would you know how random a server's income is......blah, blah, blah
Neecey said:
I'm talking about the random levels of service received throughout 15 years of dining so the rest of it....derailed babble on your part.
Teleburst said:
And yes, I've got my own experiences to fall back on....yawn
Neecey said:
And I have mine. I don't have to hear your resume everytime you get frustrated with my assertion of my own experiences. That's all. :-D
Neecey said:
Hysterical?? Really??"
Teleburst said:
Yes, really.
Neecey said:
Awww, well don't worry your pretty little head. I'm fine thank you. ;-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2943
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 05:03 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Are you dense? if there's an included service charge included, then you don't do anything else, unless you want to. If the service is poor, then you have to go to the manager and beg for your money back. And if the service is great, then, and only then shoud you fill in an additional tip.
Neecey said:
And let's say the tip needed to be 10%? Bueller...Bueller..."
Did you miss the part about "if the service is poor"?
Teleburst said:
Actually, the people I know who have done this in retail have a lot less stress because they set up permanent days off or permanent shifts at their primary job and then pick up additional hours elsewhere.
Neecey said:
Those are VERY lucky people".
Or people who actually bother to work out their schedules with their employers. Unlike what you seem to think, it happens all of the time.
"Teleburst said:
Fabulously annoyed by tipping.
Neecey said:
Fabulously annoying Teleburst.. Hee. ;-)"
Glad to be fabulously annoying to you.
"Teleburst said:
So? What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China?
Neecey said:
Okay we will do the rewind and review you need so much of:
Neecey said:
You know what's funny about this? As it is now the price on the menu goes towards the cooks/chefs pay. I don't consider that a hidden service charge and what he does affects my dining experience as well". "
Like I said, the cost of the chef is irrelevant.
"Teleburst responded:
That's because cooks/chefs isn't a "service position", it's a "production position". The bricklayer gets paid per hour and the person who sells the house gets paid a commission.
Neecey said:
"If currently, I can accept that the menu prices accounts for the wages for the chef in the back why then, wouldn't I be able to manage that same understanding for every other employee of the SAME establishment in the SAME industry"?
Because the cost of the chef isn't a "service charge".
"Teleburst responded:
Because they are different jobs. Servers are service/sales jobs. Kitchen workers are production jobs
Sounds to me the basis of this argument was that the reason the kitchen staff gets a wage because they produce something whereas the servers work for tip because its a service position".
Yes.
"My point was that the menu prices cover the kitchen wage and I don't consider it a hidden charge"
It's not. But it's not a service charge or a commission-based charge either.
"and the price of the jeans I buy incorporate the salespersons wage into it"
The salesperson isn't a commisssion-based sales position.
"and I deal with that just fine therefore if the system where to change I wouldn't consider a wage to the server built into the price a hidden charge either".
Except that it's not a service charge in that case. I'm talking about commission-type and percentage-based sales. Like the cost of a car based on the commission that a salesman gets. Servers are true sales positions not like quasi-sales positions like GAP salespeople where it doesn't matter if they ever sell a single pair of jeans to a customer because most of the transactions are self-service. I don't need you to get a pair of GAP jeans. You are only there as an incidental stocker who might be occasionally bothered by someone who might need some help. OTOH, you can't get a meal in my restaurant without a server.
"That's what my point was so all of your different people get paid differently doesn't really amount to much".
I agree. that's the point I was trying to make about your ORIGINAL point that just because someone gets paid differently "amounts to much".
"Kris said:
Yeah, I bet most people don't like to have to tip due to various reasons, but when it comes down to it, they'd rather they keep that power in their pocket.
Neecey said:
I understand why people would believe that".
And I understand why people might not like tipping. I know all of the arguments.
"Teleburst said:
And is a "hidden charge".
Neecey said:
No just what common people believe to be the price of a product".
Just to use an example, you and I can buy the exact same car for vastly different amounts depending on our different level of power of persuading a car salesman to reduce his or her commission.
"Usually the only thing people care about.
"Teleburst said:
How would you know how random a server's income is......blah, blah, blah
Neecey said:
I'm talking about the random levels of service received throughout 15 years of dining so the rest of it....derailed babble on your part".
Oh, my mistake. I thought that your comment actually had to do with the comment that you were responding to - i.e. Voz saying, "Given the ratio, my chances of making more money than less is better than an hourly wage". I didn't know it was just some random thing that popped into your head.
"Neecey said:
Hysterical?? Really??"
Teleburst said:
Yes, really.
Neecey said:
Awww, well don't worry your pretty little head. I'm fine thank you. ;-)"
Until it's time to tip, of course. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 797
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 07:24 pm: |
|
teleburst, it's getting old. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 555
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 09:43 am: |
|
Teleburst said:
Did you miss the part about "if the service is poor"?
Neecey said:
You're right, I did miss the part about having to go to the manager and begging for my money back. That's doesn't seem like a hassle to you? Well I guess that clearly explains why we disagree so much. Obvious nuisances and hassles are a okay with you whereas others may not see them as such rosy situations. Now wonder you seem to think average and basic discomfort is the equivalent to hysterics and overractions. Got it now.
Teleburst said:
Or people who actually bother to work out their schedules with their employers. Unlike what you seem to think, it happens all of the time.
Neecey said:
Agree to disagree on that one. I'm actually in retail (for 15 years)and have seen a lot and I do mean a lot of attempts at juggling schedules(me included). Let's just say it usually doesn't work out. But it's okay if you know 3-5 people who are handling their business just fine. Like I said. Very lucky.
Teleburst said:
Glad to be fabulously annoying to you.
Neecey said:
Actually I was saying that I was fabulously annoying you but what you said works too. Hee, Hee. :-)
Teleburst said:
Like I said, the cost of the chef is irrelevant.
Neecey said:
Of course it is because it makes my point.
Teleburst said:
Because the cost of the chef isn't a "service charge".
Neecey said:
But it's included in the price of the meal which you referred to as a hidden charge when I mention the price reflecting the servers wage. Again, the wage of the salesgirl is reflected in the price of the jeans. She provides the service she doesn't produce the jeans. Why don't I consider that a hidden service charge? Stop making the concept more complex than it really is.
Teleburst said:
It's not. But it's not a service charge or a commission-based charge either.
Neecey said:
So. It's a wage.
Teleburst said:
The salesperson isn't a commisssion-based sales position.
Neecey said:
It's a wage.
Teleburst said:
Except that it's not a service charge in that case. I'm talking about commission-type and percentage-based sales.
Neecey said:
And what I'm talking about before you muddied it up with all this extra crap is. The restaurant pays it's chef/cooks a wage. They contribute to my dining experience. The server gets tips. They also handle my dining experience. The same establishment determines how much of the chefs wage affects prices whereas they can't do the same thing for servers. You pointed out *service* and *production*. I pointed out salesgirl (service) and jean prices (incorporates wages). You do like these circles don't you?
Teleburst said:
Servers are true sales positions
Neecey said:
Ha! That is rich!
Teleburst said:
And I understand why people might not like tipping. I know all of the arguments.
Neecey said:
Good for you.
Teleburst said:
Oh, my mistake. I thought that your comment actually had to do with the comment that you were responding to - i.e. Voz saying, "Given the ratio, my chances of making more money than less is better than an hourly wage". I didn't know it was just some random thing that popped into your head.
Neecey said:
Well here's the whole quote that was right there for you to read so I'm not understanding the confusion.. oh right it's you we're talking about so here you go:
"I believe it and I've always understood where you were coming from. There are more guarantees in the finer dining places but not everyone can afford these places and are stuck with the chains that you mention often. The system as it is now allows for pretty random experiences from the chains even the middle ground places."
I obviously start referring to chains and how people are stuck with them due to cost. Hoped that helped.
Teleburst said:
Until it's time to tip, of course.
Neecey said:
Well, I do recall laughing hysterically while tipping but that was because we were retelling a joke the server told us during the meal... Does that count? :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1414
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 10:16 am: |
|
Neecey, it almost seems like with your posts, you're attempting to knock down the thin line that seperates Retail from Restaurant - Service peeps. I don't want to go around in the discussion again, but if the retail world is such a service type job, as you stated in your posts, then why do they earn a wage?
And on the other side of the line, why do servers earn a tip, when you've basically stated we should earn wages since Servers are not a sales position? Gathering from your response on:
Teleburst said:
Servers are true sales positions
Neecey said:
Ha! That is rich!
In my opinion, the desire to sell for more income is defined as a 'sales job'.
Since our tips are based on level of service (percentage of check) and the level of the check (amount spent by the customer), then we would be considered a 'sales person'.
In Retail, it doesn't matter if you sell 1 pair of jeans or a 1000; your going to make the same amount of money.
We could state the Sales Position you hold is to sell product for the store. So I can see that, but in restaurants, it's not just for the store. I'm selling to make more money, as well.
With ALL jobs that interact with customers, there is some sort of 'service'. But there is a difference to Restaurant Service and other services being supplied from other jobs. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 800
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 10:38 am: |
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voz, just being the food and set it down then get out of the way. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 11:14 am: |
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Ha! That's rich.
They have places like that paid-up. They're called cafeterias. You should try them out. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 11:56 am: |
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"Teleburst said:
Did you miss the part about "if the service is poor"?
Neecey said:
You're right, I did miss the part about having to go to the manager and begging for my money back. That's doesn't seem like a hassle to you"?
Why yes it does. It's exactly what you'd have to do if the server was getting a wage. Except it would have to be in the form of either taking something off the bill or a coupon for something free.
"Teleburst said:
Or people who actually bother to work out their schedules with their employers. Unlike what you seem to think, it happens all of the time.
Neecey said:
Agree to disagree on that one. I'm actually in retail (for 15 years)and have seen a lot and I do mean a lot of attempts at juggling schedules(me included). Let's just say it usually doesn't work out. But it's okay if you know 3-5 people who are handling their business just fine. Like I said. Very lucky".
Ahhh, so now YOU play the "I've been in the business for 15 years" card. I thought that was irrelevant and poor debating tactics <chuckle>.
" Teleburst said:
Oh, my mistake. I thought that your comment actually had to do with the comment that you were responding to - i.e. Voz saying, "Given the ratio, my chances of making more money than less is better than an hourly wage". I didn't know it was just some random thing that popped into your head.
Neecey said:
Well here's the whole quote that was right there for you to read so I'm not understanding the confusion.. oh right it's you we're talking about so here you go:
"I believe it and I've always understood where you were coming from. There are more guarantees in the finer dining places but not everyone can afford these places and are stuck with the chains that you mention often. The system as it is now allows for pretty random experiences from the chains even the middle ground places."
I obviously start referring to chains and how people are stuck with them due to cost".
So it was just a random comment and not actually directed to the comment that you quoted from Voz. Seems weird to respond to a comment with something that had little to do with the comment.
" Teleburst said:
Until it's time to tip, of course.
Neecey said:
Well, I do recall laughing hysterically while tipping but that was because we were retelling a joke the server told us during the meal... Does that count? :-)"
Nah, I was referring to being so upset that the next 30 minutes after your meal was devoted to being pissed off about a service charge. Or the trepidation that you feel in having to worry about the tip before you even darken the door of a restaurant because you "don't know how much it's going to cost you" (quotation marks indicating paraphrase instead of a quote). |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2947
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 11:57 am: |
|
"Ha! That's rich.
They have places like that paid-up. They're called cafeterias. You should try them out".
I'm guessing that "being the food" is some sort of zen waiter thing. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 558
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Voz said:
Neecey, it almost seems like with your posts, you're attempting to knock down the thin line that seperates Retail from Restaurant - Service peeps. I don't want to go around in the discussion again, but if the retail world is such a service type job, as you stated in your posts, then why do they earn a wage?
Neecey said:
Because a wage system is sufficient.
Voz said:
And on the other side of the line, why do servers earn a tip, when you've basically stated we should earn wages since Servers are not a sales position? Gathering from your response on:
Neecey said:
Didn't say you should earn a wage (I would like it if servers did) But in this instance I just pointed out that the industry figures a wage for it's other employees like chefs who directly affect my dining experience, (factoring that into the price) then it should be able to do that for all employees of an establishment.
The retail example was singled out, not by me(wonder why?) however this was initially used (along with other places of business) to point out how refreshing it is not to have to tip the salesgirl, the ticket booth guy, etc when going about a regular day.
Voz said:
In my opinion, the desire to sell for more income is defined as a 'sales job'.
Neecey said:
The better you do the more hours they give you. The better you do the better raise you get over time. The better you do the higher you are on the list when a supervisory or managerial position opens up. This involves earning more money for your efforts. Not to mention internal rewards earned for a good month or the most customer compliments. Even sad little stores like the GAP set quotas and tiers of achievement.
Teleburst said:
Why yes it does. It's exactly what you'd have to do if the server was getting a wage. Except it would have to be in the form of either taking something off the bill or a coupon for something free.
Neecey said:
Neither one would have me affecting that persons wage for the day unless of course it was the final straw in a long line of messes and they get fired. Regardless I would have no knowledge whatsoever and would be able to take my coupon and go without a second thought to the servers fate. :-)
Teleburst said:
Ahhh, so now YOU play the "I've been in the business for 15 years" card. I thought that was irrelevant and poor debating tactics <chuckle>.
Neecey said:
Never said your years of experience wasn't valid. You're talking about your experiences as a good waiter and in a fine dining establishment which of course cloud what you think is common practices all across the board. I'm talking about something not personal which is scheduling. I'm not biased about scheduling and my observations over the years doesn't involved feeling or interpretations of those situations. It was and remains difficult to juggle schedules when it comes to holding down a retail store and another job and or school. I'm not applying my own logic to these examples. I saw conflict of schedules either cause people to quit retail. Either that or them to have really hectic work routines that were very stressful and inconvinient. Myself included. This isn't a subject that has different points of view. You either work retail full time with nothing else and have that one work routine to deal which is pretty managable or you opt to do more with your time and undertake the hectic routine that ensues. Some handle the really involved schedule with more ease than others but it IS in fact still an undertaking.
Teleburst said:
So it was just a random comment and not actually directed to the comment that you quoted from Voz. Seems weird to respond to a comment with something that had little to do with the comment.
Neecey said:
No it was a comment I was making to Voz about how I understand his position and I also threw in why I take the position I take while letting Voz know I understand his. Why are you even criticizing? You misunderstood something and are trying to make up for it by suggesting I shouldn't have posted it in the first place cause YOU didn't get why it was there.
Shut up already. We've got plenty of direct dialogue for you to respond to without confusing posts meant for other posters. Jump in if you want but when you get it wrong then leave it alone don't try to label it as irrelevant just because YOU didn't understand how it was meant for that specific poster. Goodness. you do love to hog this site don't you.
OH NO! It's those hysterics again! Everybody watch out! Hee!
Teleburst said:
Nah, I was referring to being so upset that the next 30 minutes after your meal was devoted to being pissed off about a service charge.
Neecey said:
Well annoying things do annoy regular people but we've already covered that this doesn't apply to you. So when somebody runs up to you and smacks you in the face do you simply continue your conversation with ease or maybe a laugh? I'm just wondering. :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 21, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2951
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 01:42 pm: |
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"Neecey said:
Never said your years of experience wasn't valid. You're talking about your experiences as a good waiter and in a fine dining establishment which of course cloud what you think is common practices all across the board".
Only a little more than half of my last 15 years in the business have been what you would consider "fine dining". 3 years were spent at P. F. Chang's and 4 years were spent in a causal "brewpub/restaurant" (which you can see in the movie The Firm, where they filmed the scene where Mitch McDeere tells his wife that he's been unfaithful). Three of those 4 years were as manager, a position where I had to monitor the tips and service levels of a staff of 20 servers. And I'm not even counting the 3 years I spent as server in '73 - 74 (probably before you were even born) and '80 '82 in one mass market casual chain (The Magic Pan) and a small vegetarian restaurant with a server staff of only 10 people with a typical dinner check of around $20 for 2 people (in 1980, of course).
Now, how has working for The GAP colored YOUR impressions of retail? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2952
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 01:43 pm: |
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"Shut up already".
Nice. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 561
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 02:11 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Only a little more than half of my last 15 years in the business have been what you would consider "fine dining". 3 years were spent at P. F. Chang's and 4 years were spent in a causal "brewpub/restaurant" (which you can see in the movie The Firm, where they filmed the scene where Mitch McDeere tells his wife that he's been unfaithful). Three of those 4 years were as manager, a position where I had to monitor the tips and service levels of a staff of 20 servers. And I'm not even counting the 3 years I spent as server in '73 - 74 (probably before you were even born) and '80 '82 in one mass market casual chain (The Magic Pan) and a small vegetarian restaurant with a server staff of only 10 people with a typical dinner check of around $20 for 2 people (in 1980, of course).
Neecey said:
There's that resume again. Let's see what I was saying:"I'm talking about something not personal which is scheduling". This isn't a point of view. This is about time management. At least that's what that part of the discussion was about. Again, my focus was my knowledge on the undertaking it would be to taking on more than just one job in the case of retail. 15 years of seeing, not gut feelings, or opinion on the matter, or even expertise, no interpretations either. Just SEEING that juggling schedules for the most part does not work out is what I was bringing to the table. So again if you were to tell me that wearing sneakers is the best bet when working as a server because you've seen over the years how other shoes slip, slide and hurt the feet then yeah, not hard to nod a big yes to. However the rest of your debating on this board consists of interpretations, your own feeling, experiences, points of view that just don't always gel with other peoples perceptions on the subject. Quite alright.
All I 'm mentioning is time frames and schedules. Nothing emotional about these details to believe and disbelieve. I believe you when you say you know people who have been able to do it. I just chose to include that it's an undertaking and that people found it hard to do so, myself included, management positions or otherwise.
_________________________
"Shut up already".
Nice.
Neecey said:
Well come on, you ARE all up in the kool aide without knowing the flavor then you go and blame person A from the A & B conversation that you can't ever C your way out of.... :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 21, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2955
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 02:29 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Only a little more than half of my last 15 years in the business have been what you would consider "fine dining". 3 years were spent at P. F. Chang's and 4 years were spent in a causal "brewpub/restaurant" (which you can see in the movie The Firm, where they filmed the scene where Mitch McDeere tells his wife that he's been unfaithful). Three of those 4 years were as manager, a position where I had to monitor the tips and service levels of a staff of 20 servers. And I'm not even counting the 3 years I spent as server in '73 - 74 (probably before you were even born) and '80 '82 in one mass market casual chain (The Magic Pan) and a small vegetarian restaurant with a server staff of only 10 people with a typical dinner check of around $20 for 2 people (in 1980, of course).
Neecey said:
There's that resume again".
Well, it was only to counter your lie about my experience. I have to assume that it was a lie and not a mistake as you are clear here that you've "heard it all before".
I have also worked different types of retail as well (as you know, one was a "super" bookstore, and as you probably don't know, one was a small owner-operated plant store and one was a large department store). I have known managers in the first and last situations that had no trouble at all negoitating a schedule that allowed them to go to school or work a second job (doesn't apply to the plant store since the owner was one of the managers, although I do remember when his assistant manager actually went back to school and we saw a lot more of the owner). I currently know 3 people like that as well. I'm not saying that it's a "slam dunk", just that it's not as improbable as you might say it is.
"15 years of seeing, not gut feelings, or opinion on the matter, or even expertise, no interpretations either. Just SEEING that juggling schedules for the most part does not work out is what I was bringing to the table".
Exactly what I do when I try to tell you the reality of the restaurant business. But you turn a blind eye to it. Thing is, I've been in both worlds and you haven't.
"So again if you were to tell me that wearing sneakers is the best bet when working as a server because you've seen over the years how other shoes slip, slide and hurt the feet then yeah, not hard to nod a big yes to".
Except I wouldn't tell you that since I wear "regular styled shoes", albeit non-slip). <chuckle>
"However the rest of your debating on this board consists of interpretations, your own feeling, experiences, points of view that just don't always gel with other peoples perceptions on the subject".
Nope. Not "gut feelings", "interpretations" but SEEING. Just like you. Except you haven't been on the "inside" in my job, whereas I've been on the inside of yours. Except for your own descriptions of your job (I have to take your word on things like how demeaning it is to serve coffee to clients), I wouldn't try to define your working conditions in your financial company, only to say that it must me nice to "work" when you want to and post on the internet when you want to. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2956
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 02:30 pm: |
|
"Neecey said:
Well come on, you ARE all up in the kool aide without knowing the flavor"
Oh SNAP! Oh no you dinnt. <waving finger>
(Message edited by teleburst on August 21, 2009)
(Message edited by teleburst on August 21, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 563
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 02:46 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I currently know 3 people like that as well. I'm not saying that it's a "slam dunk", just that it's not as improbable as you might say it is.
Neecey said:
And what I'm saying is that it's more of an undertaking than you make it seem. Being that I was in the position of juggling jobs along with school while working in retail I can tell you that I couldn't accept a position in management because it required being available all hours 7 days a week in order to open the store, close the store and be available for overnighters. No way to set aside days and time for other jobs. Manhattan store close rather late so of course that's most likely a factor in our perceptions of the same situation. I worked at Gap stores that close at 9pm and schedule their closing staff til 11pm then schedule that same person the next day at 6am. Most stores open at 9am and close at 9pm. As for managers, only people with a lot of clout, time in or great resume can cherry pick their hours. That's been my experience. For stores that open at 10am and close at 5pm with employees punching out at 5:15 (Watch World might've had a schedule like that) then I can see where it could be possible without stress or hassle but that would be foreign around here.
Teleburst said:
Exactly what I do when I try to tell you the reality of the restaurant business.
Neecey said:
I wouldn't argue with you if you told me how the schedule works. I never have actually. Schedules aren't subject to point of view, opinion or interpretation.
Teleburst said:
Nope. Not "gut feelings", "interpretations" but SEEING. Just like you.
Neecey said:
And reading customers minds based on what the tip tells you. Sorta like reading tea leaves.. :-)
Teleburst said:
Except you haven't been on the "inside" in my job, whereas I've been on the inside of yours.
Neecey said:
You like to think that. I think it's cute. ;-)
Teleburst said:
I wouldn't try to define your working conditions in your financial company, only to say that it must me nice to "work" when you want to and post on the internet when you want to.
Neecey said:
It is nice cause I have my own office. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2961
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 03:14 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
I currently know 3 people like that as well. I'm not saying that it's a "slam dunk", just that it's not as improbable as you might say it is.
Neecey said:
And what I'm saying is that it's more of an undertaking than you make it seem. Being that I was in the position of juggling jobs along with school while working in retail I can tell you that I couldn't accept a position in management because it required being available all hours 7 days a week in order to open the store, close the store and be available for overnighters".
That's because you wanted to stay with the same company and apparently didn't have enough leverage. That's a choice that you made. Not all retail establishments have the same requirements.
"As for managers, only people with a lot of clout, time in or great resume can cherry pick their hours".
And, in other stores, they allow some flexibility, especially if they want to hire quality people. In fact, it was that way with my job as well. I said that I needed to always have Fridays off because I have a volunteer gig that I do Friday afternoons (I'll be leaving for it in about an hour). While it's not rare to get a set day off in a restaurant, it IS rare to get a Friday or Saturday night off because that's "prime time" and most managers need to stay flexible and be able to make their entire staff available for either day. And yet, I was hired on that basis.
"Teleburst said:
Exactly what I do when I try to tell you the reality of the restaurant business.
Neecey said:
I wouldn't argue with you if you told me how the schedule works. I never have actually. Schedules aren't subject to point of view, opinion or interpretation".
But, as Voz has succintly pointed out, that's part and parcel of the whole "wage vs. tip" issue.
"Teleburst said:
Nope. Not "gut feelings", "interpretations" but SEEING. Just like you.
Neecey said:
And reading customers minds based on what the tip tells you. Sorta like reading tea leaves.. :-)"
When I "interpret" something like that, I make it clear that it's based on what I SEE.
"Teleburst said:
Except you haven't been on the "inside" in my job, whereas I've been on the inside of yours.
Neecey said:
You like to think that. I think it's cute. ;-)"
Thank you. the only difference between your job and my retail experience is that I sold books and cameras and portable stereos and records (forgot about my year and a half at Peaches Records and Tapes in the 70s). Like you, I stood around waiting for the occasional person who needed help.
"Teleburst said:
I wouldn't try to define your working conditions in your financial company, only to say that it must me nice to "work" when you want to and post on the internet when you want to.
Neecey said:
It is nice cause I have my own office. :-)"
Well, there you go. I've had mine in the restaurant business as well and occasionally got to post on the fledgling internet in the mid 90s as well. Can't really do much of that as a server though, even though there are the rare servers who post little tidbits from their Blackberries during a shift. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 568
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 03:52 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
That's because you wanted to stay with the same company and apparently didn't have enough leverage. That's a choice that you made. Not all retail establishments have the same requirements.
Neecey said:
No, I wasn't able to move up at the Gap, take a management job at another retail store a few years later as well as a supervisor position at a starbucks a couple of years back. These came up through friends who used to work with me and told me about the openings I was a shoe in for (due to my connections :-) but the required availability wasn't doable for me.
Teleburst said:
And, in other stores, they allow some flexibility, especially if they want to hire quality people.
Neecey said:
Yeah, of course that's what I mean by really good resume and even then there's no guarantee it would stay that way. Retail is famous for flipping the script and demanding changes to already agreed on hours in order to keep up the fluxating needs of the store. I've seen managers demote themselves because they needed a more structured schedule because of life changes, like having a baby, going to school etc. and no not just at MY store or company for that matter.
Teleburst said:
Like you, I stood around waiting for the occasional person who needed help.
Neecey said:
Did the tea leaves tell you that? Awww, again how cute. I'm glad you were able to have such a stress free retail experience. You're in the minority, I'll be sure to tell my coworkers that the Unicorn exists after all. They will be amazed and stunned at this revelation. :-)
Teleburst said:
Well, there you go. I've had mine in the restaurant business as well and occasionally got to post on the fledgling internet in the mid 90s as well.
Neecey said:
Yes, I find it quite comfortable and very stress free which I appreciate since I give up soooo many hours and energy to working 2 jobs. It's a load off since I work 7 days a week giving my weekends to the store being that Thurs-Sun is a required availability. Everyone's availability contract before this new development was just invalid and the new options were pony up a company friendly availability or find the door. Yeah, working retail is soooo stress free.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 21, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 802
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 04:58 pm: |
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teleburst you have met your match. LOLOLOLOLOL |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 23, 2009 - 10:42 pm: |
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"The real scale is based on all those *weak* minded people who still tip when they shouldn't and give in to the 20% is the new 15% mentality that has IN FACT infiltrated the masses."
On the contrary, I think this is why patrons DON'T want to give up deciding what the tip should be. If the quality of service is such a crap shoot, especially mid-scale restaurants on down, then why would anyone want to guarantee either a high wage equivalent to 15-20% or an automatic service charge?
It all comes down to guilt. Or maybe being known in that establishment as cheap?
What is it exactly that bothers you, Neecey? Being talked about among the service staff? Afraid next time you go in they'll give you even poorer service, earning a reputation? What if you discussed with the manager your decision regarding the tip? That would be some assurance that your lower or no tip would be known to the server as justifiable.
You've talked about how you receive such poor service in your area, why do you want to give them a guaranteed wage? Show them they stink by the amount you give them. It is your decision how much, be it 0% or 20%. Write a comment card or note perhaps explaining if it was so bad.
Do you fret when service was actually good? |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 573
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 11:37 am: |
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Kris said:
On the contrary, I think this is why patrons DON'T want to give up deciding what the tip should be. If the quality of service is such a crap shoot, especially mid-scale restaurants on down, then why would anyone want to guarantee either a high wage equivalent to 15-20% or an automatic service charge?
Neecey said:
I suspect people wouldn't be thinking in terms of guaranteeing anything. Customers walk in see the prices on the menu and decide whether they feel the restaurant is worth the prices. I do that now when deciding on where to eat. I also calculate whether it's within the budget I've set for myself and then decide. If these places didn't have tipping then it would just be a decision about the menu prices. If the experience is lacking it's a bad reflection on the restaurant as a whole and I feel that's a more professional way to judge it.
Kris said:
It all comes down to guilt.
Neecey said:
I think it boils down to a dislike for bad structure and unprofessionalism.
Kris said:
What is it exactly that bothers you, Neecey?
Neecey said:
I've gone into detail about what bothers me about the system on different threads. There isn't some in depth spiritual cause. The are a variety of things I find wrong with it besides my own personal distaste. Is it going to haunt me til I'm old and gray? It's not like that. I tend to step back and look at things as a whole and see where things don't flow as smoothly as they probably should. I think there are a lot of details with the tipping system that allow different corners of the industry to just take advantage. Ever since coming on this site I've learned of even more areas of this industry that is just all over the place in terms of keeping true to what the mainstream concept is supposed to be.
Kris said:
Afraid next time you go in they'll give you even poorer service, earning a reputation?
Neecey said:
The fact that it's too personal. Personal is all well and good when the service is good but when it isn't the system as it is creates a tension beyond just the lack of good service between the server and the customer. It involves monetary compensation or lack thereof. That's a different sort of tension than just not being pleased with the end product. I think it's unprofessional to have customers put into this situation when I look at it completely through a business angle. Is it such a robotic scenario in reality? No, but it's still there underneath, no matter how many chose to wave it away as a minor hiccup.
I guess being a sensitive person, who feels it's inappropriate for me to withhold money as a form of punishment to another grown adult, is considered weak. Although, I think it's a consciousness most people SHOULD have. It isn't guilt it's seeing beyond all the "it's not a big deal" talk and seeing it for the distasteful act it really is. I think this view isn't agreed upon by more because, for the most part, servers make a killing and would not like the system to change. However just because it's *rewarding* for the most part doesn't change it from what it really is.
Kris said:
Show them they stink by the amount you give them.
Neecey said:
Exactly my point. I don't want to show them they stink by withholding money. To me that just seems too extreme. If I complain about someone's performance to their manager in any other trade I can just leave it at that. The manager would know whether it's their best employee having a bad day. They would know whether it was just a fluke and therefore a person doesn't get punished for one bad day at work. I didn't just go to the back room adjust their time sheet and take off the $10 for the hour they spent with me just because I feel as if I didn't get what I deserved.
There would be a seperation of expectations. I expect a good product and when that doesn't happen I expect that it be handled by the appropriate people. It's not the first time the argument of "having the power" as the customer has been used as if that should be something to be giddy about. I want to leave all that up to people who are on the clock and not me who,at the moment, is most likely off for the day.
It also seems that this is an industry where you sort of need to be your own boss. I mean it's described as a "contract" between the server and the customer however in real businesses when things don't turn out accordingly the business owner isn't really at liberty to blame XYZ as reasons for not delivering. Servers have this out (don't lower the tip due to kitchen error, busy night, bartender) but as private contractors should be able to to take hits for thier support staff. However this isn't the expectation now is it?
It's like hiring someone to paint your livingroom for $ they come in do a crappy job but blame the store that provided the paint and the person that got the brushes for him or that his last job went longer than expected which cause him to rush the job he did for you. Still expecting the same amount (kinda like still expect that 15% because the kitchen screwed up) because I mean hey the job is done, right? You still ended up with a portion of what you expected, right? That wouldn't fly now would it?
There's just a lot of hidden and not so hidden details that just doesn't come together with regards to the way this system provides a service and the compensation for that service.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 24, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2972
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 04:00 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
Like you, I stood around waiting for the occasional person who needed help.
Neecey said:
Did the tea leaves tell you that? Awww, again how cute. I'm glad you were able to have such a stress free retail experience. You're in the minority, I'll be sure to tell my coworkers that the Unicorn exists after all. They will be amazed and stunned at this revelation. :-)"
Awww pumpkin, I'm sorry that you work in such a stressful environment. I'll be sure to tell friends to stay away from working at the meatgrinder that is The GAP.
"Teleburst said:
Well, there you go. I've had mine in the restaurant business as well and occasionally got to post on the fledgling internet in the mid 90s as well.
Neecey said:
Yes, I find it quite comfortable and very stress free which I appreciate since I give up soooo many hours and energy to working 2 jobs. It's a load off since I work 7 days a week giving my weekends to the store being that Thurs-Sun is a required availability. Everyone's availability contract before this new development was just invalid and the new options were pony up a company friendly availability or find the door. Yeah, working retail is soooo stress free".
I'm sorry that you have to work 7 days a week to get by. That sucks. If I were to leave the restaurant biz, I'd likely have to do the same thing in order to make what I'm making now, which was my original point. As it is now, it's pretty much impossible for me to pick up another job due (ironically enough), the extreme flexibility of the restaurant business. I can arrange my schedule however I like, but I pretty much have to do it week to week.
" Teleburst said:
That's because you wanted to stay with the same company and apparently didn't have enough leverage. That's a choice that you made. Not all retail establishments have the same requirements.
Neecey said:
No, I wasn't able to move up at the Gap, take a management job at another retail store a few years later as well as a supervisor position at a starbucks a couple of years back. These came up through friends who used to work with me and told me about the openings I was a shoe in for (due to my connections :-) but the required availability wasn't doable for me".
As I said, you made your own choices.
Funny how you're doing the same thing that you accuse ME of doing - taking personal experience and making universal proclamations about it. Unfortuantely, while you think that it's almost impossible to do, I know it can certainly be done. I don't have to rely on "gut feelings". |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 575
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 09:17 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Awww pumpkin, I'm sorry that you work in such a stressful environment
Neecey said:
No need, that's life and I accept that when it comes to earning a living things aren't necessarily going to be as rosy as I would like. This needs to be a mainstream concept.
Teleburst said:
I'm sorry that you have to work 7 days a week to get by.
Neecey said:
Not necessarily. I work because I like treating myself and giving myself the extra cushion in my savings account not to mention the savings I get on clothes, mens,women and children. It's my way of taking advantage of all my resources around me.
Teleburst said:
As I said, you made your own choices.
Neceey said:
No I was using the example to tell you that it isn't as easy to take on a management position at retail while having oodles of time to pick up extra hours elsewhere stressfree. That's all this whole hashing out has been about. You're attempts a good number of posts before to suggest it be such a stress reliver to take up retail if your industry decides to implement a wage. Same pay but less stress with easy opportunity to work elsewhere. Now I didn't argue that it would probably be less stressful than serving but only that the hours wouldn't be as flexible. You'd be trading stressful details not getting rid of them all together that's all.
Teleburst said:
taking personal experience and making universal proclamations about it.
Neecey said:
Huh? Universal? I think I made the point of explaining the NY aspect of it which you almost always ignore as well as point out with my own personal situations why I doubt your train of thought on the idea. It's not universal but I can tell you it isn't as easy as you like to protray it to be. I know you're examples are designed to provoke the whole retail vs. server angle but if you look back I was just countering your simplistic point of view meanwhile trying to back it up as if you have some serious insight on the subject. I on the other hand talk from the position of customer when debating your industry. Always have. You are the one who talks in universal absolutes even though you know that your "inside" knowledge of retail is rather jaded so as to back up your ideas of servering in relation. Regardless of your experiences, to totally discount someone else's accounts of what their own job entails just shows how one sided you remain to be. We can also look at it this way. You had an easy retail job. I on the other hand don't. It's pretty evident that showing customers where books are isn't the eqivolent as being a personal shopper for someone at a clothing store.
While I initially brought up this comparison with servers no where did I suggest that servers had an easy job. Suggesting that the jobs were similar was not intended to be some sort of insult however it was taken as such. That was not my intention. Instead you've been stuck on this ridiculous comparision regarding helping people find books to helping people with clothing, sizes, fits, colors, having product knowledge and customers that can't be satisfied.
How pissed off does someone get about not finding a book? Your lame attempt at trying to convince the masses that telling someone what aisle The Cat in the Hat is located somehow relates EXACTLY to what sales associates go through at a retail colthing store in NY was just ludicrious and classic avoidance. Especially since you continued to ignore the examples given that outline job responsibilities in question. It was and still is very juvenille to continue on this whole retail vs. server position. I believe what I believe and sorry I'm not accepting this whole different realm serving is suppossed to be in. Plain and simple so you should get over it.
Teleburst said:
I know it can certainly be done. I don't have to rely on "gut feelings".
Neecey said:
Oh, I'm sure it can be done in your neck of the woods....No gut feeling necessary but in a fast paced unforgiving town like NY not so much. :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 24, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2974
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 10:13 am: |
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"You're attempts a good number of posts before to suggest it be such a stress reliver to take up retail if your industry decides to implement a wage".
I never said that. I said that it would be an alternative should my industry go to a wage that was considerably lower than what I'm making now and that I could probably, by working two jobs for longer hours, make close to what I'm making right now.
Can I have some of what you're smoking?
"You had an easy retail job. I on the other hand don't".
That's hilarious. I never said that it was "easy", except relative to waiting tables. In fact, I mentioned how hectic it could be. I'm not surprised that you've forgotton or ignored that. I don't know if you're called on to unload trucks full of 60 lb boxes twice a week, but I tend to doubt it.
Teleburst said:
taking personal experience and making universal proclamations about it.
Neecey said:
Huh? Universal? I think I made the point of explaining the NY aspect of it".
So, what does that have to do with me changing jobs? What does your limited experience with having to turn down a single job in Manhattan because you weren't wanted enough to have some clout in negotiating a needed schedule have to do with the retail environment in Nashville?
So what does that have to do with me switching to retail in Tennessee (or somewhere else)?
"Oh, I'm sure it can be done in your neck of the woods".
Glad you've come around. Glad to have schooled you. Glad for you to admit in so many words that you were wrong. Now, what ELSE are you wrong about? <chuckle>
"How pissed off does someone get about not finding a book"?
Sometimes very. Especially when they've driven an hour to get a best seller that the store is temporarily out of.
"Your lame attempt at trying to convince the masses that telling someone what aisle The Cat in the Hat is located somehow relates EXACTLY to what sales associates go through at a retail colthing store in NY was just ludicrious and classic avoidance. Especially since you continued to ignore the examples given that outline job responsibilities in question. It was and still is very juvenille to continue on this whole retail vs. server position".
Sorry that you feel juvenile. I guess you should work on that.
"I believe what I believe"
And yet, the world is actually round.
"I'm not accepting this whole different realm serving is suppossed to be in. Plain and simple so you should get over it".
I don't care if you are delusional or not. But when you use those delusions to ignore reality when discussing a subject, you can expect to be called on it.
"It's pretty evident that showing customers where books are isn't the eqivolent as being a personal shopper for someone at a clothing store".
Just letting girls talk about fashion? Sounds like more of a hobby! Sounds like paradise. Talk about fashion - step in the back and text a BFF - take a 15 minute smoke/coffee break - it's a perfect life for a lady who loves to dress up her family in half-price clothes.
PS, just so you know - there's a reason whey they hire people in bookstores that are well-read - because, just like you, there are plenty of times when a customer needs a "personal shopper", believe it or not. Part of the culture of a bookstore is having a knowledgable staff that can intelligently discuss books and help people decide what they want, because it's just like a jeans store in this regard - most people know what they want and don't need anything other than superficial help - but some need guidance.
I understand the pull of cheap clothes as a rationale for keeping a job, BTW. I miss my 40% off books as well. A good bit of my paycheck went to books. Some servers like the food discounts that they get in their restaurants (we don't get them though, so it's not an issue for me at the moment). |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 578
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 02:46 pm: |
|
Teleburst said:
I never said that. I said that it would be an alternative should my industry go to a wage that was considerably lower than what I'm making now and that I could probably, by working two jobs for longer hours, make close to what I'm making right now.
Neecey said:
Oh really? So what did you mean with this?
"Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail. I'll make about the same amount of money for far less stress and hassle".
"No more stressful than it is now, where I have to juggle a different schedule every week right now. Actually, the people I know who have done this in retail have a lot less stress because they set up permanent days off or permanent shifts at their primary job and then pick up additional hours elsewhere."
Teleburst said:
That's hilarious. I never said that it was "easy",
Neecey said:
Oh really you didn't?
"Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail".
"Like you, I stood around waiting for the occasional person who needed help."
So you DIDN'T mean this to sound like working retail was a cakewalk? I mean hey, if your bookstore job was this easy great but it's obviously not the same as what I've described my workday to consist of. (How the hell did we get back here??? anyway)
When you continue to mention that whole "we've done the same job" thing while trying to assert your *authority* over me cause you *think* you've done what I do it derails things. Maybe if you admit that your retail job WASN'T exactly the same as mine and quit telling me what MY realities are regarding my job then maybe we can continue on with the thread topic. I've only used my retail comparison to serving as a discussion starter and a TRUE curiosity of the differences involved. It's also been used as examples of different methods of compensations. I've questioned this different realm some try and put serving in but other than that I'm not attacking the work involved.
It's the same as if someone at Denny's tried to compare what they do to what you do at your fine dining restaurant. Would that sit well with you if they tried to lump themselves in that same category? Yeah, some of the basics are the same but you most likely have a good amount of skill sets NOT required for Denny's as well as their employees needing a good amount of additional skills in order to compare to what you do at your restaurant. Fair enough and does that make things clearer for you?
Teleburst said:
So, what does that have to do with me changing jobs? What does your limited experience with having to turn down a single job in Manhattan because you weren't wanted enough to have some clout in negotiating a needed schedule have to do with the retail environment in Nashville?
Neecey said:
Huh? The positions REQUIRE a very open availability. I've mentioned that in NY store stay open late. Til 9pm and some even later so that IS a significant part of it. Oh, they wanted me but I didn't have enough hours to give them. Plain and simple.
Teleburst said:
So what does that have to do with me switching to retail in Tennessee (or somewhere else)?
Neecey said:
It's most likely easier there. Are we going to challenge the differences between working and living in NY now?. Realities that aren't based on my "gut feelings".<sigh>
Teleburst said:
Glad you've come around.
Neecey said:
I had already agreed with you about that several posts back. I thought you were well read? Hee.
I guess it's that bone again with you.
Teleburst said:
Sometimes very. Especially when they've driven an hour to get a best seller that the store is temporarily out of.
Neecey said:
Wow, I guess bookstores are few and far between in your neck of the woods huh?
Teleburst said:
I don't care if you are delusional or not.
Neecey said:
So it is in a different realm? Really? Now notice I didn't say a different realm of retail. I just don't believe it's in a realm all by itself. That's just too extreme.. and a tad bit amusing as well. Hee. :-)
Teleburst said:
Just letting girls talk about fashion? Sounds like more of a hobby! Sounds like paradise.
Neecey said:
Hee, wait, didn't you say in the beginning of the same post that you never said it was easy? Now you're calling it a hobby and a paradise. Hmmm. That's rather....schizo actually. Hee!
Teleburst said:
it's a perfect life for a lady who loves to dress up her family in half-price clothes.
Neecey said:
Hey, I get a discount on the GAP, Old Navy AND Banana Republic. Comes in handy and yes it's a pleasant job to hold on to FOR ME cause I've paid my dues and work minimal hours. Doesn't change what it is for those working there full time and are good at it. Funny how you look at things only in relation to me.
Teleburst said:
Talk about fashion
Neecey said:
Fashion? A good chunck of it is product knowledge and not which celebrity is walking around with gap jeans. Very humorous. No grasp about what it's about yet you're an authority on the subject, classic! :-)
Teleburst said:
because it's just like a jeans store in this regard -
Neecey said:
What would you know about a jeans store except what you experience as a customer? The same customer experiences that would disqualify me as an authority on servers? Funny how you keep spinning your *retail* experiences behind the scenes while only having your customer experience to refer to when talking about retail *clothing* stores. This is a nice slight of hand I must say.
Commenting on your book store transactions while connecting it to clothing (i.e. well when I help a customer with a book-just like when you help someone with jeans) gives the false impression that you know what goes on in a retail clothing store without actually paying attention to what errors you're making with the comparison. And yes there are errors that you refuse to admit to even though I've pointed out time and time again that your examples aren't then same. I don't mind agreeing to similarities but you don't leave that option open. You just speak as if by law with no room for errors on your part.
We could drop this whole retail vs. server vs. bookstore vs. pretzel stand vs. new realm thing. Just as long as you know that whenever you want to use retail as some joke comparision to you're holier than thou profession I WILL call you on it. Not because I LOVE retail or am defending it tooth and nail (partly true) but mainly because you're just WRONG. That's all. :-)
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 25, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 04:17 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
I never said that. I said that it would be an alternative should my industry go to a wage that was considerably lower than what I'm making now and that I could probably, by working two jobs for longer hours, make close to what I'm making right now.
Neecey said:
Oh really? So what did you mean with this?
"Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail. I'll make about the same amount of money for far less stress and hassle".
Exactly what it says. With a measure of your usual hyperbole.
""Like you, I stood around waiting for the occasional person who needed help."
So you DIDN'T mean this to sound like working retail was a cakewalk"?
Nope. Just taking a page from your book by mocking your job as you did the job of working in a bookstore.
"Maybe if you admit that your retail job WASN'T exactly the same as mine"
If you can claim that waiting tables is the same as retail, I can certainly assert the same about two jobs that are very similar.
"I guess it's that bone again with you".
You seem to have bones on the brain these days.
"Teleburst said:
Just letting girls talk about fashion? Sounds like more of a hobby! Sounds like paradise.
Neecey said:
Hee, wait, didn't you say in the beginning of the same post that you never said it was easy? Now you're calling it a hobby and a paradise".
I think it's starting to dawn on you. Funny how you can't recognize getting poked at the way you poke at others.
"Teleburst said:
because it's just like a jeans store in this regard -
Neecey said:
What would you know about a jeans store except what you experience as a customer"?
Obviously as much as you know about bookstores.
"Just as long as you know that whenever you want to use retail as some joke comparision to you're holier than thou profession I WILL call you on it"
As I will when you sputter about waiting tables, something that you know very little about. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2977
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 04:26 pm: |
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Might as well 'fess up - retail is FAR easier than waiting tables...<g> |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 580
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 05:01 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Might as well 'fess up - retail is FAR easier than waiting tables...<
Neecey said:
Well I've never done your job remember so I can't confirm that now can I? Works both ways if I can't claim it's an easy job (which I've never done) then I can't claim it to be as grueling at you claim it to be either. :-)
Teleburst said:
Exactly what it says. With a measure of your usual hyperbole.
Neecey said:
You conviniently left out this quote:
"Take that away and I'll go work in an easy job like retail".
Teleburst said:
If you can claim that waiting tables is the same as retail
Neecey said:
I suggested their were similiarities. Someone's spinning again...
Teleburst said:
I think it's starting to dawn on you. Funny how you can't recognize getting poked at the way you poke at others.
Neecey said:
Sure, teleburst tell me another one. Hee.
Teleburst said:
Obviously as much as you know about bookstores.
Neecey said:
I know what I know based on what you've shared on this forum which is working at the bookstore didn't require much effort. I'm not quoting but if you look at your posts most of your references to your job at the bookstore counter my attempts at describing how hard "retail" can be. So I'm just using the information you've shared here. Meanwhile you don't use what I've shared as a typical workday. You continue to make up your own reality. Slight Of Hand. :-) You should do kids parties.. Now there's something you could pick up extra hours doing when you make you seamless transition to retail manager.. Hee!
Teleburst said:
As I will when you sputter about waiting tables, something that you know very little about
Neecey said:
I don't talk about waiting tables. I talk about being waited on by servers. You just can't seem to realize the difference.
It's funny how you had nothing to say about this example I gave you. Could it be that it makes sense? Yeah, I thought so:
It's the same as if someone at Denny's tried to compare what they do to what you do at your fine dining restaurant. Would that sit well with you if they tried to lump themselves in that same category? Yeah, some of the basics are the same but you most likely have a good amount of skill sets NOT required for Denny's as well as their employees needing a good amount of additional skills in order to compare to what you do at your restaurant. Fair enough and does that make things clearer for you?
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 25, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 09:32 pm: |
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Neecey, thanks for your explanation. When you put it that way, I see what you mean. My questions posed are some things that go through my head when deciding on what to give for sub-par service, especially if it's a local, frequented restaurant.
I'm going to just let you two battle it out from here unless something else comes up.
I don't see tipping going away anytime soon so this seems like a lot of work hashing this out so often. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 582
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 08:57 am: |
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Kris said:
I don't see tipping going away anytime soon so this seems like a lot of work hashing this out so often.
Neceey said:
Well this site is mainly one subject so there are only so many different things to talk about. Hee. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 09:14 am: |
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Neceey said:
Well this site is mainly one subject so there are only so many different things to talk about. Hee. :-)
Agreed. Getting tired of the one trick pony discussions. Maybe we should broaden our horizens and talk about politics and religion...80
Wouldn't that be a hoot? |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 09:16 am: |
|
Neceey said:
Well this site is mainly one subject so there are only so many different things to talk about. Hee. :-)
Agreed. Getting tired of the one trick pony discussions. Maybe we should broaden our horizens and talk about politics and religion...80
Wouldn't that be a hoot? |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 02:32 pm: |
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No, I mean specifically the wage vs. tipping argument.
How about we switch to the tipping for take-out instead? :P |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 02:40 pm: |
|
"Teleburst said:
Might as well 'fess up - retail is FAR easier than waiting tables...<
Neecey said:
Well I've never done your job remember so I can't confirm that now can I"?
Right.
I'll just leave it at this - on your busiest, most wacky day in the middle of the holiday season in the most overheated retail store in the middle of Manhattan, the job of a clerk is less stresful and easier than the average shift in a strip mall Chili's on a typical Saturday night. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 587
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 05:24 pm: |
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Kris said:
How about we switch to the tipping for take-out instead? :P
Neecey said:
Oh dare we start?? <evil grin> Hee!
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 26, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 588
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 05:26 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I'll just leave it at this - on your busiest, most wacky day in the middle of the holiday season in the most overheated retail store in the middle of Manhattan, the job of a clerk is less stresful and easier than the average shift in a strip mall Chili's on a typical Saturday night.
Neecey said:
AAAAnnnnnddddd with much love, I will continue to agree to disagree with you on that one. Muah! Sleep well though and sweet dreams. Maybe another *insightful* post will come to you while you slumber. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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