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kingchief
New member
Username: kingchief
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 09:08 am: | 
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I have a question for anyone in the food service industry, who might be able to answer this question. If my wife and I go to dinner at Outback our bill is $70 and the tip* (*depending on service) is $12, breakfast at the Waffle House is $16 and tip* $3. What did the server at Outback do differently than the server at Waffle house? Don't use the time issue or the busboy issue either. At the Waffle house they Bus their own tables and even if they seat the table twice in the same time frame that would make their tip* $6. I don't understand. |
lords_of_acid
Advanced Member
Username: lords_of_acid
Post Number: 916
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 07:51 pm: |
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kingchief
"What did the server at Outback do differently than the server at Waffle house?"
I am not a server, but they bring you bread for FREE, sometimes more than one trip to your table for refills of bread. There's no free bread at Waffle House.
There are no bartenders to tip out at Waffle House, because they don't sell liquor.
Don't you feel you get better quality of food and service at Outback than Waffle House, even just a little in GENERAL(sure there may be a time you had better service at Waffle House, but I bet it's not very often)? I see a huge difference between the service and quality of food I get at Denny's vs. Outback, you don't? I don't remember there ever been a hostess or host at Waffle House for the servers to tip out. It's a much smaller restaurant. During certain hours at Waffle House, they may have only a few customers, whereas Outback is usually packed or more busier than Waffle House, so the server is serving more people at once most of the time.
That's some of the things that I can think of. Did you ever hear of a saying "You get what you pay for?" Well, restaurants like Denny's and Waffle House normally don't have the best servers in GENERAL(can't say that all the time, but in general). |
kingchief
New member
Username: kingchief
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 07:24 am: |
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Lords, lets think about what you just said. I do not pay for anything to do with the server in the price of my meal (the servers have made that abundantly clear, the restaurant pays them nothing, its all on tips.) Which means I do not expect less service because my meal is cheaper. I also do not expect less in my server if they are busier at Outback than Waffle House. The server is making more money for working harder (more tables, more money.) If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen! Now, lets examine the trips to the table Outback delivers the bread (not Free, price of the meal) at the same time they take a drink order. Trip 2 deliver drinks take app order. Trip 3 deliver apps take dinner order and 2nd drink order. Trip 4 deliver drinks. Trip 5 deliver entree. Trip 6 how is everything and my 3rd drink order. Trip 7 3rd drink would you like desert (no, remember 3rd drink)and here's the check. Waffle House Trip 1 Drink order. Trip 2 serve drinks take order. Trip 3 top off my coffee. Trip 4 serve meal. Trip 5 top off my coffee. Trip 6 Was everything alright, would you like more coffee? (no) here's the bill. 7-6 Outback wins 1 extra trip costs you $13. Oh I forgot they have to bring me my change that's 2 extra trips, the girl at the waffle house has to do it at the cash register, that must not count. Let's not forget everytime the Outback server brings us a beer($3.50 x 2) the tip goes up aprox. $1.25, all those trips at Waffle House to fill my coffee cup are free. It dosn't make any sense, don't even say they work harder at Outback. |
linda
Member
Username: linda
Post Number: 209
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 08:02 am: |
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Here's alittle input from me...a server.
1. As a server my restaurant REQUIRES me to claim tips at the end of my shift. I have to claim a certain percentage of my TOTAL SALES. They are looking for 10 - 14 percent of my sales to be reported. The IRS or "government" is looking for the restaurant to "police" servers. So even if I chose to report 8% at the end of my shift - the restaurant changes the figures and bumps up the amount. This is the SYSTEM IN PLACE in the US. If a guest does not tip me...or tip me appropriately it actually costs me to have that guest at my table.
2. Your Outback server probably has to tip out - hostesses, busboys, runners, and bar. Yes...servers typically have to tip out the bartendar on TOTAL SALES NOT JUST BAR SALES. yes...the hostesses and "runners" (staff who take the food to your table if they are busy). My "guess" is the Waffle House server keeps all the tips they are given.
3. At Outback you do have to take very intensive tests before they hire you. I do not agree with their testing methods...
4. Outback servers probably need more product knowledge....beers, drinks, etc...
Bottom line...as a server myself...I "understand" that my tips are typically based on the total sale of the table's check. I can choose to stay where I am...or move on.
I've watched Waffle House staff at work. I really do believe that they are expected to do more work than an Outback server....but maybe that's because I can actually SEE THEM AT WORK. Their working environment is very open...we can see the cooks...I saw the host washing dishes in between seating people...I can the servers making waffles..etc..
At my restaurant...you can't really see all that I'm doing when I'm out of sight. I don't have to cook your food...but I'm doing everything else (dishes, making salads, preparing soups, filling ice, making coffee, cleaning, making desserts, answering the phone, running other server's food, etc....etc....).
It's quite possible your Outback server is in the back doing all those other jobs...even though you don't see them. It's all about keeping the restaurant running....not just looking after you.
Management loves to have servers (paid $2.83 an hour) do all the work that someone at a higher paid rate should do. So you aren't just paying for the server to look after you...they are doing tons behind the scene. |
regularguy
Member
Username: regularguy
Post Number: 117
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:06 am: |
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linda normally under IRS rules you DO NOT HAVE TO CLAIM A SALES %, without PROOF OTHERWISE THEY EXPECT IT. If a server does what they should be doing keeping a log daily of their tips and tip outs they DO NOT have to claim a particular % and have all the proof they need if they are audited.
So many servers don't understand the above so it needs to be repeated. It can only cost you to serve a table (very unlikely since you already get $2.13 to minimum wage) from a no tip table if your tipout based on sales is more than what you get hourly.
Some of what linda says here is true "but I'm doing everything else (dishes, making salads, preparing soups, filling ice, making coffee, cleaning, making desserts, answering the phone) running other servers food doesn't matter since sometimes they will run your food, also at waffle house you may have to answer the phone, make coffee, clean. The extra prep for salads and likely soups (wouldn't think at waffle house most dishes come with those) is true.
In theory you have better servers at Outback though I notice little difference in service among lets say Chili's versus IHOP. She is right that tipouts for staff would be higher.
kingchief from a logical point of view you are totally correct that the tip expectation is out of proportion to the extra work involved. However that's the way tipping works. One thing not mentioned is often the middle chains limit their servers to fewer table, I guess in theory to turn them quicker. I know that shouldn't be your concern but less tables per server means less money for them. |
realdeal
Member
Username: realdeal
Post Number: 109
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:49 am: |
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lords_of_acid: You have never been to the Waffle House I work at as I feel the service we give is second to none. As to busy. That is about 50/50. During the week sometimes it is slow, but on the weekends, it is insanely busy. As soon as one group gets up another takes it's place.
How many trips does a Waffle House worker make to the table? There really isn't any set number of times. It could be as little as two(we have some customers that want you to bring them their food, and then go away), or as many as 12(some seem to have a magic device in their throat that allows them to pour whole drinks down at one time).
Yes I feel that at Waffle House we do a lot more work than at a Outback or a Chili's. We have to do all of the normal server work, plus bus the tables, wash the dishes, prep a lot of the food, cook a good deal of food, and clean the store too. Some things we do because we just want to. We decorate for the holidays(not the store), we often bring candy for holidays, we listen to people who come in alone and are feeling bad for whatever reason.
The good news for us is that most customers do not just tip 20% for thier service. It is very rare that a customer will tip that low. Day shift customers tend to be a bit cheaper than those on night shift, but even with them for two people with a $16 bill, most would leave a $5 tip. Most customers will tip more if they are there for a long period of time, and get more than the normal amount of refills of coffee or drinks.
A good example is, I have a group of 4 guys in their early 20's that will often come in and just get coffee, but they will sit there for a couple of hours. Their bill is $5.43. If they went by a 20% rule, that would only be $1(based on the pre tax total of $5. We have an 8.5 percent tax). What they really tip me is $10-$15 depending on how many times I fill their cups and the sugar contanier(they use a lot of sugar).
kingchief: There isn't anything to understand. You are allowed to tip more than 20% when you are at a place where the price of the meal is very low. Most Waffle House customers tip at least 40% because the prices are low. Some tip closer to 100%. Some even more. We have a minister that comes in with his wife. Their food comes to around $15 and some change. They tip the cook $20 and the server $40. Do you think their coffee cup or tea glass ever gets empty? Do you think they get good service? They always eat and drink the same thing. Their drinks are being made as soon as they walk through the door. Not just them, but all of the regular customers that tip well. You are right, you get what you pay for.
Get tired of posting here, shop instead!!!
http://bcsmall.com
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kingchief
New member
Username: kingchief
Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:28 pm: |
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Linda and regular guy, thank you for your posts, both very informative, but neither figures out why such large inequities exist between high and low priced meals. If a tip is $20 on a $100 check what are the average percentages of tip outs to busboys, hostesses etc.? How many tables does an Outback server, wait? Wouldn't a better system be to tip based on how long you sit at a table per person a,b,c depending on quality of service. Than refilling that free iced tea 20 times wouldn,t matter. And Realdeal wow(This question from the other post) if a plumber comes to your house and dosn't get your toilet unplugged, are you still going to pay him? Tipping is there to ensure quality service, you need to read my other post closer. And $80, 50% how the hell much do you think a server should make? I would like to hear an answer from Regular Guy and Linda, if a server did not receive any tips and worked an hourly wage only, what should that wage be and if you don't mind, include the city where you are from, the cost of living could affect your answer as I am from Dayton. |
paid_up
Intermediate Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 254
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 03:57 pm: |
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realdeal- there is no 20% rule. |
nuvola09
Advanced Member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 833
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 06:08 pm: |
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kingchief,
You may want to look at the other threads, as a lot of your questions have been discussed among us at length many times before. There is a thread somewhere about "average" tip outs in our various restaurants, along with the type of places we work and in which cities. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:38 pm: |
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"Linda and regular guy, thank you for your posts, both very informative, but neither figures out why such large inequities exist between high and low priced meals. If a tip is $20 on a $100 check what are the average percentages of tip outs to busboys, hostesses etc.? How many tables does an Outback server, wait? Wouldn't a better system be to tip based on how long you sit at a table per person a,b,c depending on quality of service. Than refilling that free iced tea 20 times wouldn,t matter. And Realdeal wow(This question from the other post) if a plumber comes to your house and dosn't get your toilet unplugged, are you still going to pay him? Tipping is there to ensure quality service, you need to read my other post closer. And $80, 50% how the hell much do you think a server should make? I would like to hear an answer from Regular Guy and Linda, if a server did not receive any tips and worked an hourly wage only, what should that wage be and if you don't mind, include the city where you are from, the cost of living could affect your answer as I am from Dayton".
Tipping is based on the percentage of sales. The standard in the US is 15% for "average service". If the server gives you better than average service, then 18% is normal. If a server gives you exceptional service, then 20% is normal, with some people being even more generous. If a server doesn't do as well, then 12 -13% is pretty normal. If a server screws up pretty badly, then 10% is considered an "insult tip" (or just ignorance if the service was perfectly acceptable). The exception would be at a place where a whole meal costs $10 or less. There, I think you see a recognition by many people that you shouldn't just tip 20% on a $10 meal. Why not throw another buck for that hard working server and make it 30%? I've made this point in another post.
My current tipout is 20% of actual tips to the backwaiter, 5% to the bar, whether I've sold a drop of alcohol or not, and 2% to a dish expeditor when she works (Tuesday through Saturday). I've worked in a place that required 40 -45% of my tips.
But don't cry for me. I work in a place where the average per person is around $75 for dinner. With that comes a different level of "work". There's a lot of responsibility involved when someone is spending that sort of money. Plus, I only have 3 or 4 tables, max. Believe me though, this can entail a lot fo stress, especially when you get triple-seated. You're balancing doing your spiel, decanting and pouring bottles of $200 wine while you're getting sat at another table that you're expected to get drinks on the table in 5 minutes or less (and greet them within a minute), you're expected to get all of the courses delivered at the proper times, maintain a certain professionalism and decorum, AND maintain your running sidework as well (doing opening and closing sidework before and after your shift). Do the wrong thing at the wrong table at the wrong time and you'll find yourself either suspended for a week or outright fired. You spend countless hours ironing and cleaning your aprons and jackets (or paying $7 a shift to have them done professionally), making sure your shoes have the requisite shine, etc. You have to know your 230 bottle wine list and know your food inside and out.
For this level of service, I'm averaging over $25 an hour in tips (it would be more like $40 an hour without tipout). However, I've been in the business for over a decade. In the more modest restaurants I've worked in, I used to average about $15 an hour. And yes, we had more to do. In one restaurant, we did our own busing and had 4 or 5 tables that turned every hour to an hour and a half (my current guest spend more like 2 - 3 hours). We didn't have food runners or backwaiters, so the only tipout was to the bar. In another restaurant, we'd be slammed from the time we walked in at 5 until 9pm with full stations all the time (serving between 40 and 70 people per shift (currently, I serve about 20 to 30 people a shift). This was the restaurant where we had the 40%-plus tipout because we had food runners as well as bartenders and backwaiters - and we NEEDED those food runners to serve the volume of people). Generally, you'll find that most servers average about $15 an hour for dinner and $10 - 13 for lunch (which is usually a shorter shift). I average about $12 an hour for lunch, but lunch is the price that I pay for getting to work dinner. We don't have food runners, so we have to add running the food to the list of jobs that we do. and our restaurant is quite a bit larger than a Waffle House is, so this isn't as much of the same thing as taking no more than 5 steps to get the plate from kitchen to table.
These averages include those nights where I work 6 hours and walk with $90, so, it's not always huge bucks. But the $30 and $40 an hour nights make up for it.
The longer you're in the business, the better restaurants that you are qualified to work in. This is the only sort of "promotion" that a server can reasonably expect, unless they decide to go into management. Generally, the longer you work in better restaurants, the more refined the work becomes. It's "easier" in some ways, but, as I said, the responsibility that you carry is much greater.
Realdeal has said that she makes about $15 an hour as well, so she's right about the same as a server at Chili's. The work is more refined at Chili's because you've moved up the food pyramid. That's just the way it goes.
None of this is to denegrate the Waffle House server. They certainly work hard and they earn their money. They SHOULD get a higher percentage because you're only talking about a buck or two. But once you move out of the Shoney's/Waffle House sort of place, the percentage is pretty constant, whether you work at Chili's or Morton's. And if a server at Chili's wants to work in a more "refined" place (not as much of a slam-bam sort of place), they refine their skills and work their way up the pyramid (the same with someone who wants to get out of Waffle House and go to Chili's).
And, I can say this, not everyone who works at Morton's would do well if thrown into a Waffle House, and vice versa.
The inequities that you refer to is based on the fact that you pay a percentage of the bill (it's been that way for 100 years in America). It's the same reason that a Jaguar dealer makes more per car than a Kia saleman does. The product is more expensive so the commission is higher. And so is the expectation of the customer. If you are willing to pay $75 for a dinner, you have a higher expectation than if you're paying $10 at Waffle House. And, you should be willing to pay for the experience.
BTW, I make 2.13 an hour. So, all of my real money comes from you, the guest. The hourly goes entirely to taxes, and it isn't even enough to cover them. I owed $3k at tax time, even with the withholding, which was only $600 for the whole year.
Sorry for being so long, but I wanted to cover as many bases as possible.
Hope this helps. |
paid_up
Intermediate Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 07:19 am: |
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Lords, is that you? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1933
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 08:50 am: |
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Bevis, is that you? Or is that Butthead?
Thanks again for your on-point contribution on the subject of tipping. I'd suggest that you stop your retirement and get back in the workplace. I hear that WalMart is hiring greeters. You DO have experience in 4 wheeled vehicles, right? |
linda
Member
Username: linda
Post Number: 210
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 01:42 pm: |
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To quote Teleburst.."The longer you're in the business, the better restaurants that you are qualified to work in. This is the only sort of "promotion" that a server can reasonably expect, unless they decide to go into management. Generally, the longer you work in better restaurants, the more refined the work becomes. It's "easier" in some ways, but, as I said, the responsibility that you carry is much greater."
Kingchief...for me to work in the restaurant I work in now...I would want $18 - 20.00 an hour. My restaurant would NEVER pay out that kind of money.
If I worked in Teleburst's restaurant I would surely want more...because of all the extra requirements for their professionalism standards.
Teleburt's answer was right on... |
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