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vanguard
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I was wondering about tipping landscapers (not for lawn mowing services - I do that myself!). We are having a new patio installed and the project was pretty involved, requiring demolition of a big old concrete patio - some pretty heavy work.

Would a tip be appropriate? Most of the work has been done by two guys, would $20 each be enough?
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gbowen99
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tipping in this situation is not needed. Some may say getting a tip is never a bad thing, but throwing money away can be. Having clearly already paid a premium to experts for landscaping service. Just leave it at that.

(Message edited by gbowen99 on August 29, 2007)
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teleburst
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Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

$20 a person would be a nice gesture, and if it makes you feel good to give a little extra reward for a job well done, how could that possibly be "money thrown away"? If more people made small gestures that made people's days brighter, I suspect this would be a much nicer world to live in. Who knows how that little bit of kindness might manifest itself down the road?

Having said that, tipping would be strictly optional in this case.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Teleburst

I have to disagree with you on this. I feel their day is pretty bright with the premium landscapers are charging. If you really want to make them feel better bring them a ice cold drink while complementing them on their craft. Money does not always bring happiness or show kindness. Most of the time kind words are worth more than cold hard cash.
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

You can disagree all you want, but you're just plain wrong. If you want to be a stingy guy who doesn't want to lose a penny then that's your right, but to come down on someone else for being nice, well, that's just wrong. Just the fact that this person was even asking shows an inclination to be a little generous. And if you think that dropping $40 to show some additional gratitude for a $3000 job well done, well, frankly, you're just a crabby little person in my view. And frankly, a kind word and a few dollars is almost always better than a kind word by itself. Ask yourself if you'd feel better if you had just done a hot, sweaty multi-day complex job without a little tip (which BTW is totally appropriate as I previously said) than if your employers simply said "good job" and gave you a nice little tip. (If you said you would, I'd call you out, because the fact that your job is only about the physical act of making money in the first place shows me that you place a premium on a dollar). And don't tell me that you would have given back any tips that someone would have given you as an 18 year old bag boy because making $4.50 a hour was sufficient.

Finally, the act of being generous to them when it isn't necessary might very well give them the impetus to pay it along to someone else. That was my main point.
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merryteri
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Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm curious, gbowen99. When was the last time that you worked for a landscape contractor? How much was your salary? The homeowner may be paying a premium for the landscaping services (or not), but how much of that premium is making its way to the workers?

How can you say that these workers would prefer an ice cold drink and a compliment to some extra cash? Do you have a group of friends who work on landscaping crews that tell you that? If they are, they're pulling your leg.

Over the years, I have had hired a number of contractors to work on my home or on my landscaping and I have given the workers (not the owners) $20 each and no one has ever turned it down. It's a nice gesture and I'm happy to do it.

Advantage: Teleburst
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And who says that a cold drink and a small tip are mutually exclusive? Unless I miss my guess, I'm thinking that Vanguard might actually provide an occasional cold drink, regardless of whether or not a tip is involved.

(Message edited by teleburst on August 30, 2007)
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry you feel I am wrong here. Why is it the consumers place to right the wrong of the greedy landscaping company? As a consumer you are already paying the salary of the worker or a job well done. If that does not show gratitude then your seeing something we are not. How many employees by say IBM get tipped after working a 60 hour work week? I can answer that for you 0.

"And don't tell me that you would have given back any tips that someone would have given you as an 18 year old bag boy because making $4.50 a hour was sufficient."

We were suppose to refuse the tip at first and then if the customer insisted we took it. I remember bagging and bringing $600+ worth of groceries out in the hot sun to someones car only to get a $1 tip. I was still happy about getting paid an hourly wage.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"I'm curious, gbowen99. When was the last time that you worked for a landscape contractor?"

Never have.

"How much was your salary?"

Still never have.

"The homeowner may be paying a premium for the landscaping services (or not), but how much of that premium is making its way to the workers?"

Why should I be concerned how much each worker is getting paid. I assume they are getting paid what they are worth. None of my business.

"How can you say that these workers would prefer an ice cold drink and a compliment to some extra cash?"

The only option from me is ice cold drink. So they would prefer the drink to nothing.

"Do you have a group of friends who work on landscaping crews that tell you that? If they are, they're pulling your leg."

I have friends who do their own landscaping.

"Over the years, I have had hired a number of contractors to work on my home or on my landscaping and I have given the workers (not the owners) $20 each and no one has ever turned it down. It's a nice gesture and I'm happy to do it."

If that's how you want to spend your money go ahead. I am sure they report those tips right away to the IRS as well.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Sorry you feel I am wrong here".

Just to be clear, you are wrong for assuming that this is money thrown away. There is no standard that I can figure out that makes this thrown away money. My point is, it's not an excessive amount (they aren't giving $20 for a $20 job, for instance), it's freely given (there's no extortion or even a social compact that demands it, as in a restaurant), and, if it makes the homeowner feel good for doing it, then it can only be good, especially since it benefits the workers without seeming like charity.

"Why is it the consumers place to right the wrong of the greedy landscaping company"?

You really can't see past your own bias here. Nowhere did I say that it was the consumer's place. In fact, i said that it was stictly optional. I'm guessing that if I had used the alternative wording "not customary", you still would still be busting me for "demanding that the customer right the wrongs of management.

"As a consumer you are already paying the salary of the worker or a job well done. If that does not show gratitude then your seeing something we are not".

No, it doesn't show "gratitude". It simply completes a contractural arrangement. Gratitude can take the form of a cold drink, a warm thank you or even a small in-hand exchange of cash. None of those are even necessary under the contract. But they are nice things that make both parties feel good. I know that apparently you are a bit of a cold fish, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to be.

"How many employees by say IBM get tipped after working a 60 hour work week? I can answer that for you 0".

Well, how many IBM employees have worked directly for me? I can answer that for you - 0. If an IBM employee came to my house and spent 8 grueling hours revamping my computer system, I would probably slip him a fiver or a tenner depending on how I perceived his commitment to me as a customer.

"And don't tell me that you would have given back any tips that someone would have given you as an 18 year old bag boy because making $4.50 a hour was sufficient."

"We were suppose to refuse the tip at first and then if the customer insisted we took it".

Of course you did. And rightly so.

"I remember bagging and bringing $600+ worth of groceries out in the hot sun to someones car only to get a $1 tip".

What do you mean "only" a $1 tip? Since you were making $4.50 an hour, that was almost a quarter of your hourly income for about 5 minutes of work. And it was extra money to boot.

I find it telling that you used the word "only", which implies to me that you are indeed capable of making distinctions in the level of "appreciation" that can be made, but you seem incapable of doing that when it doesn't suit your purposes.

"I was still happy about getting paid an hourly wage".

And you don't think that these laborers aren't happy with making their $15 an hour, even though the bulk of the money for the job stays with the company?

GMAB.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Only is the best word to use with $1.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Only is the best word to use with $1".

Not in a system where tipping was actively discouraged and a kid is making $4.50.

How about "only" tipping $1 on a drink? <snort!>
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Not in a system where tipping was actively discouraged and a kid is making $4.50."

Fellow Kroger employee: Hay how much did you get?

Me: Only a buck

"How about "only" tipping $1 on a drink? <snort!>"

$1 tip on 20 seconds of work is a pretty good deal.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

""How about "only" tipping $1 on a drink? <snort!>"

$1 tip on 20 seconds of work is a pretty good deal."

You forget the hour that it took to cut the fruit, restock the bottles, roll the 140 lb keg from the storage cooler to the tap cooler, wipe the bar down, make the sweet and sour and other mixes, stock the bev naps, shine the brass and windex the glass, fill the sinks and make sure that they are charged with the correct cleaning material, make those pesky little blue cheese olives, restock glasswear and beer bottles, count the drawer, stock the register rolls, and at least once a month come in an hour early to help with inventory. And that's just before the shift (and certainly not all you have to do). Then think about the hour afterwards when you smell like beer and cigars, it's 2am and everyone else except for the manager have gone home, and have to pull the mats and wash the floor, count the money, do your report, wipe and cover the bottles (so that you don't get those pesky fruit flies and at least once a week, pull all of the pour spouts and soak them overnight) and do the other standard cleanup jobs. Yes, sometimes you're the late person and you don't have to set up the bar, and some tasks are done by barbacks as well, but in both cases, you get less of the take, since the tips are shared according to the number of hours you are on the clock, and the money is shared with the barback.

At least as a punk bagger, all you had to do was show up on time, put on your apron and go.

And don't forget, your bartender probably only got about .30 of that dollar, since all tips are shared with the other bartenders and barbacks.

(Message edited by teleburst on August 31, 2007)

(Message edited by teleburst on August 31, 2007)
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"At least as a punk bagger, all you had to do was show up on time, put on your apron and go."

All that extra work sounds like it does suck.

And wipe down the fruit and vegetable sections, clean the bathrooms (Thats right baggers clean pee and crap from 100's of people then touch your food.), clean up any spill, and get karts from the parking lot.

If you don't like what your doing then do something else, ask for more money, or cowboy up. I did something else.
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teleburst
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Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

""At least as a punk bagger, all you had to do was show up on time, put on your apron and go."

All that extra work sounds like it does suck.

And wipe down the fruit and vegetable sections, clean the bathrooms (Thats right baggers clean pee and crap from 100's of people then touch your food.), clean up any spill, and get karts from the parking lot.

If you don't like what your doing then do something else, ask for more money, or cowboy up. I did something else".

Once again, you missed the point by a country mile. You said, "$1 tip on 20 seconds of work is a pretty good deal". I just pointed out that you were wrong on several levels, not the least of which is the misconception that your bartender even made that $1.

I'm going to make $40k-plus this year but our bartenders will make even more, even when they split their money. We happen to like what we're doing, and we take our responsibilities as part of the job (and I don't know that "suck" qualifies, it's just part of the work that you don't see when you fork over your hard-earned tip money to us).

I'm glad that you were able to progress past being a bagger at a Kroger, not that there's anything wrong with being a bagger at Kroger, especially when you're 17. But, using your standards, you shouldn't have been working at all when you were 17. You should have just relied on your parents to give you an allowance while you were going to high school.

PS, hopefully the other baggers actually washed their hands after cleaning up pee and crap, and I hope you eventually learned to as well. BTW, I sincerely doubt that hundreds of people use the bathrooms at Kroger (maybe in a year). Once again, your ability to hyperbolize is truly a thing of wonder.
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hacinta
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Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Van, I think it is a very kind gesture. I am sure the workers appreciated the tip very much. Nothing says thank you like cash.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A $1 tip for opening a beer and handing it to me is an awesome deal. $1 for bagging up 80 lbs of groceries and putting it all in the back of your ride is not a good deal. I understand the bartender does not get all the $1 but the $1 transactions happens so fast I am sure those percents add up quick.

You would be surprised how many people go to Kroger's during the day and how often the bathroom gets used. The bathrooms got really dirty and nasty. I have seen plenty of restaurant workers not wash their hands and I do tell management when I do see it. Thats only the ones I see.
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hacinta
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Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

gbowen, I know I am always surprised at people that dont wash after using the bathroom. restaurant workers and non. Its basic hygiene. I have taken many safe food handling courses and learned a lot from them, I even practice some of the things at home.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

hacinta

I used to work at a hospital. I have had doctors show the correct way and time to wash. Its funny how the length of time is the same as singing the birthday song. So when you wash hum happy birthday.
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rev_rund
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Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"A $1 tip for opening a beer and handing it to me is an awesome deal. $1 for bagging up 80 lbs of groceries and putting it all in the back of your ride is not a good deal. I understand the bartender does not get all the $1 but the $1 transactions happens so fast I am sure those percents add up quick."

Its only an awesome deal for bartenders if you don't factor the many other areas of the job. For instance;
1. Before the bartender opened that beer for you he/she carried it and 100's of lbs. of other beers up to the bar and stocked them.
2. Unlike the grocer who deals with one person at a time coming at him or her in a single file orderly line, your bartender has waves of people in odd groups, all screaming that they were next. For a comparision go back to your grocery store and try to be the bag boy for every checkout at the exact same time. Make sure that every customer is beligerently drunk for extra fun.
3. The crap per minute that a bag boy has to deal with is not even close to that of a bartender. The worst a bag boy encounters is an old lady crabbing about putting the milk on top of the bread. In just performing the simple act of opening a beer your bartender most likely has been screamed at for one of the following reasons; beer was too warm, beer was too cold, after taking sip customer changes their mind and wants something different, after drink 3/4's of the beer customer claims it is skunky and demands a new one, just to name a few.

This could get ridiculously long but I'll stop and say that maybe you haven't considered all that goes into "just" opening a beer, and why the tip should be so much more than lifting groceries.

As an aside I fully support ratting restaurant workers out who don't wash their hands. If our cooks arent washing I want someone to say something because I have to eat there too, and I don't want to imagine where their hands - or crotches - have been.
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teleburst
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Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

When you're making $4.50 an hour as a teenager and expected to return any tips because tipping is discouraged, $1 should be an awesome tip for you in any case.

And quit making it sound like you have to lift 80 lbs of groceries and carry them to the car. Your bartender *has* had to lift kegs of beer and transport them from the cooler to the tap cooler.

PS, I'll bet you the money in my pocket to the money in your pocket that most of the bathroom use in a Kroger is by the employees. I wouldn't even know where the bathroom in a Kroger was, but I'm sure that it isn't what most people would call a "public bathroom". I don't think I've ever seen conventional bathroom signage for a "customer bathroom" as you would in a store like Target, nor would it be designed as "separate facilities" I'm guessing that it's somewhere behind the swinging doors near storage facilities. Of course, I could be wrong <shrug>.

Oh yeah, I too worked in a hospital. Probably about the time that you were just learning to walk. I didn't get tipped there either, not even when I saved someone's life. Go figure.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"And quit making it sound like you have to lift 80 lbs of groceries and carry them to the car. Your bartender *has* had to lift kegs of beer and transport them from the cooler to the tap cooler."

Comparing a grocery clerk and a bartender is like comparing green apples to red apples. Both do a lot of physical labor most of us don't see.

"I'll bet you the money in my pocket to the money in your pocket that most of the bathroom use in a Kroger is by the employees."

The older Kroger's bathrooms are hidden in the back. But the new flagship Krogers bathrooms are usually up front and easy to find. I frequent grocery stores for ingredients when I cook.

BTW I got some bacon wrapped filets mignon steaks. Used a little seasoning. Better then Bob's chop house. Only cost $3 a steak.
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teleburst
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Comparing a grocery clerk and a bartender is like comparing green apples to red apples".

Since I was comparing a bagger with a bartender, your point is completely irrelevant.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Since I was comparing a bagger with a bartender, your point is completely irrelevant."

Comparing a grocery clerk's work vs a bartender's work we could sit here all day saying one works harder then the other. In the end it does not matter.
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teleburst
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Comparing a grocery clerk's work vs a bartender's work we could sit here all day saying one works harder then the other".

Why would we want to do that? We weren't talking about grocery clerks.

Either job is certainly harder than day trading.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Why would we want to do that? We weren't talking about grocery clerks.

Either job is certainly harder than day trading."

Grocery clerks or bagger its all the same.

On a physical level yes, on a mental level no.

Not to dis bar tending but according to http://www.abcbartending.com anyone can be a bartender in just 40 hours. It takes a lot longer to become a day trader then just 40 hours.

"training in just 40 hours to become a professional mixologist."
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teleburst
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Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Not to dis bar tending but according to http://www.abcbartending.com anyone can be a bartender in just 40 hours. It takes a lot longer to become a day trader then just 40 hours".

No it doesn't. It takes a stake to create an account, a computer, and about 20 minutes to get started. If you have a large enough stake, you can become a full-time day trader that very day.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

To be comfortable with trading and whats really going on getting into day trading can take months. If you want to jump into it be prepared to have an expensive learning lesson.
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

To be comfortable (and good) as a bartender, it can take years of tending bar. So it's got you beat there as well.

I could jump into day trading today and do quite well, thank you very much. Even given my vast experience in front-of-the-house, it would take me a minimum of several months to be competent enough to run a busy Friday night. Not everyone is cut out to be a bartender, which is why I'm not one.

BTW, you know that you to can be an artist, right? Just look on the back of the comic books and draw the pirate. Send it in and you'll be accepted for "artist's school".
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gbowen99
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"To be comfortable (and good) as a bartender, it can take years of tending bar. So it's got you beat there as well."

Ok let's break it down to cost and reward.

To be a certified bartender ready to work it takes 40 hours. Who would pick up a bartender with 40 hours work experience? TGIF or a D&B type establishment. How much would you make there? I guess (From what I have read here) about $15 to $18 an hour. Not bad but not great.

Now lets look at the day trader.

According to you it takes about 20 minutes to become a day trader. So after 20 minutes you start putting money in this stock and that stock not really knowing what your doing, how the stock historically has been preforming, what the projected profits, and new products xyz has been coming up with. A few hours from now after you have spread out your $25,000 purse (yes it takes about $25,000 or more to become a serious day trader) don't be surprised if most of it is gone.

So the cost of becoming a bartender is 40 hours and the cost of becoming a serious day trader is $25,000. Does 40 hours have $25,000 beat still? Vegas odds say no.
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"To be a certified bartender ready to work it takes 40 hours. Who would pick up a bartender with 40 hours work experience? TGIF or a D&B type establishment. How much would you make there? I guess (From what I have read here) about $15 to $18 an hour. Not bad but not great.

Now lets look at the day trader.

According to you it takes about 20 minutes to become a day trader. So after 20 minutes you start putting money in this stock and that stock not really knowing what your doing, how the stock historically has been preforming, what the projected profits, and new products xyz has been coming up with. A few hours from now after you have spread out your $25,000 purse (yes it takes about $25,000 or more to become a serious day trader) don't be surprised if most of it is gone.

So the cost of becoming a bartender is 40 hours and the cost of becoming a serious day trader is $25,000. Does 40 hours have $25,000 beat still? Vegas odds say no".

You've got so many things wrong.

First of all, "bartending school" is a bit of a scam. I've worked with over 100 bartenders and I haven't known a single one who ever went to such or school, nor do I know what the term "certified bartender" is. I know that I've hired probably 10 bartenders in my time as well and none of them has been "certified". That doesn't mean that there aren't a few out there, but virtualy all bartenders get their start by simply being a barback, a server or talking their way into the job.

Now, your assumption about the day trader is that they have no knowledge about the stock market. This might or might not be true, but there are millions of people who know their way around the stock market because they probably already have indulged in stock buying. I've never been a day trader, but I know how to set a trailing stop, I know how to read a balance sheet, I can interpret a stock chart and I have access to the very things that make it possible for you to indulge yourself by being a day trader. Having said all of that, I think it's almost impossible for ANYONE to claim that they are a successful day trader anyway, because, almost by definition, a day trader is always just a month or two away from being wiped out, no matter how successful they are. Does this contradict what I said? Nope. Because, being successful as a day trader or as a bartender is not a given, regardless of certification or research or experience. Just because someone has graduated from bartender school doesn't mean that they will be a successful bartender, just as starting an account and starting day trading is no guarantee of success (or failure).

Don't try to pretend that stock picking is some arcane thing that only guys like you who happen to have lucked into some money can do. That's the thing about the internet - we all have access to the same information that an untrained and uncertified financial speculator like you has access to. And, it's highly unlikely that anyone would lose their $25k in just a few hours. Totally ridiculous. The more you post, the less I think you really know and the less credible you are.

My point was, in terms of ease of access to the "job", it's far easier to become a day trader, provided, as I said, you have the stake.

Oh, ps, bartenders usually make more like $20 - 40 an hour when all is said and done. They usually get a little higher hourly wage and in a restaurant with a busy bar (like mine), will generally make more money than the servers, but they work longer hours as well.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Getting certified in a craft will more than likely get you picked by a place of employment then not having become certified at all.

"Don't try to pretend that stock picking is some arcane thing that only guys like you who happen to have lucked into some money can do."

In stock picking you have to understand the market trends then everything that could influence your pick. I made my money the old fashion way. I earned it, invested it, and reinvested it.

"And, it's highly unlikely that anyone would lose their $25k in just a few hours."

Anyone can and does lose 1000's everyday. If someone were to invest all of $25,000 in one day on the wrong stocks they can lose most of it. Then they can throw some good money after bad and lose the rest of their $25,000.

"My point was, in terms of ease of access to the "job", it's far easier to become a day trader, provided, as I said, you have the stake."

Ok...so someone can make an account on Scottrade and say "yes I am a day trader", but I seriously doubt they will make their income off the $500 they just invested in google. Just like someone can paint something on a canvas and say they are an artist. Or how someone can run behind a bar, open a bottle of beer, and say "I am a bartender now".
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nuvola09
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Getting certified in a craft will more than likely get you picked by a place of employment then not having become certified at all.

Absolutely not not not true for bartenders.

And here's why: people that pay $500 to go to bartending school are usually the ones with zero experience. They are trained in how to make drinks that no one ever orders, and (based on what I know) are not taught anything about wine, liquor or beer facts. Lets say some bar manager hired them for weekend bar shifts. This person has probably never stepped behind a real bar, and will know little or nothing about how to talk to customers, how to keep things clean and organized, the reasons why certain things are done the way they are, and current trends in the bar world (for example: mojitos are really big right now, as of last summer, and everyone is making them...but you need to know how to make them correctly and to current standards or else your guest will choke).

A bartending class doesn't prepare you for customer interaction, speed, handling money, etc. Actually, this almost insures that you have no time interacting with customers. Know why? You're in the controlled environment of a classroom instead of paying your dues working as a bar back. As much as I may brag about being a student, there are many circumstances where being one completely cheats you out of real-world experience and hurts your chances of getting a real job. Bartending heavily falls into this category.

More proof that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Getting certified in a craft will more than likely get you picked by a place of employment then not having become certified at all".

Nope. Not at all. You're simply wrong. We hire people who either have experience, know someone who vouches/recommends them, or works their way up in the restaurant. Those are the ONLY three ways that I've seen ANY bartender get hired in the 12 years that I've been in the business.

Bartending school is a scam designed to separate you from your money.

"Don't try to pretend that stock picking is some arcane thing that only guys like you who happen to have lucked into some money can do."

In stock picking you have to understand the market trends then everything that could influence your pick. I made my money the old fashion way. I earned it, invested it, and reinvested it".

And since you're obviously not genus material, plenty of people can do the same thing.

"And, it's highly unlikely that anyone would lose their $25k in just a few hours."

Anyone can and does lose 1000's everyday".

So? As I said, it would have to be an incredible combination of being extremely unintelligent and or a bizarre market condition to make someone lose most of their $25,000 before the end of a trading day.

"If someone were to invest all of $25,000 in one day on the wrong stocks they can lose most of it. Then they can throw some good money after bad and lose the rest of their $25,000".

And pigs can probably fly in some alternative universe. Hell, I might as well just say that you could lose all of your money tomorrow and be just as right.

"My point was, in terms of ease of access to the "job", it's far easier to become a day trader, provided, as I said, you have the stake."

"Ok...so someone can make an account on Scottrade and say "yes I am a day trader", but I seriously doubt they will make their income off the $500 they just invested in google".

What part of "have the stake" did you not understand? Obviously to be able to support yourself solely as a day trader, you would need a substantial amount of capital. Someone who has $500 to invest is an "investor", not a "day trader". I"m beginning to wonder if you're who you say you are because this isn't the first time you've confused simple financial terms. apparently you're as accomplished in the financial world as you are fluent in German.

" Just like someone can paint something on a canvas and say they are an artist. Or how someone can run behind a bar, open a bottle of beer, and say "I am a bartender now".

Well yes. But the proof of the latter is what happens on Saturday night.

BTW, someone who paints on a canvas *is* an artist. I've got 8 guitars in my house and I play a little guitar. Therefore, I'm a guitarist. A not very good guitarist, but a guitarist nonetheless.

And, nuvola, damn skippy.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 09:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Nope. Not at all. You're simply wrong. We hire people who either have experience, know someone who vouches/recommends them, or works their way up in the restaurant. Those are the ONLY three ways that I've seen ANY bartender get hired in the 12 years that I've been in the business.

Bartending school is a scam designed to separate you from your money."

Let's say you have two waiters who are looking to become bartenders. One of the waiters just thinks it would be cool to be a bartender. The other just completed bartending school, knows how to make 25 of the most popular drinks, read a book on wines, and wants to own his own bar one day. Who would management want to hire as the new bar back? Now the waiter can pay his dues behind a real bar and become a great bartender one day.

"And since you're obviously not genus material, plenty of people can do the same thing."

If day trading is so easy why doesn't everyone do it? Anyone can do anything they want. It's the do that is hard.

"Someone who has $500 to invest is an "investor", not a "day trader"."

Day trading refers to the practice of buying and selling financial instruments within the same trading day such that all positions will usually (not necessarily always) be closed before the market close of the trading day. Traders that participate in day trading are called day traders. So someone who "invests" that day and sells the same day IS a day trader.

"BTW, someone who paints on a canvas *is* an artist. I've got 8 guitars in my house and I play a little guitar. Therefore, I'm a guitarist. A not very good guitarist, but a guitarist nonetheless."

Here your sadly mistaken. Being an artist means your making your living doing art and not just painting stick men on a canvas. Both a master painter like say da vinci and 5 year old accomplish putting paint to canvas but the outcome defines what an artist is thus separates the two.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Absolutely not not not true for bartenders."

Then why are these bartending schools still in business if they don't have ANY value to what they teach? I will just take your word for it then.

"And here's why: people that pay $500 to go to bartending school are usually the ones with zero experience. They are trained in how to make drinks that no one ever orders, and (based on what I know) are not taught anything about wine, liquor or beer facts. Lets say some bar manager hired them for weekend bar shifts. This person has probably never stepped behind a real bar, and will know little or nothing about how to talk to customers, how to keep things clean and organized, the reasons why certain things are done the way they are..."

Yes that is true.

"A bartending class doesn't prepare you for customer interaction, speed, handling money, etc. Actually, this almost insures that you have no time interacting with customers. Know why? You're in the controlled environment of a classroom instead of paying your dues working as a bar back. As much as I may brag about being a student, there are many circumstances where being one completely cheats you out of real-world experience and hurts your chances of getting a real job. Bartending heavily falls into this category."

Someone wanting to get into bartending and not start out as a waiter would benefit from bartending school. It could land them as a bar back where they could pay their dues and really learn something. Same thing as someone who would go to college to learn about banking then go work at a bank for some real life experience.

More proof that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

They stay in business because they aren't expensive to open and operate and they just enough suckers to keep their operation open. I'm not saying that they are "rip-offs" per se; they just aren't necessary to get into the business and a "certification" from them doesn't get you hired (unless they have some sort of placement service and frankly, I'm not sure that I'd want to work for some place that has to rely on an arrangement like that).

The restaurant community knows that it's far better to learn the business from the bottom up instead of just walking right into it from the streets (when it comes to tending bar). Book learnin' and practicing moves all is fine but it doesn't give you the street smarts you need to manage a bar (manage in terms of being able to do it, not be a manager).

"Someone wanting to get into bartending and not start out as a waiter would benefit from bartending school. It could land them as a bar back where they could pay their dues and really learn something".

No, they would need to go to bar back school. <guffaw>

Once again, you don't need the school to become a bar back. All you need is the desire to be one and be in the position to be able to ask for it. Bar back is a job that you could possibly talk your way into off of the street and it's what you would call a "ground floor opportunity". You don't need to be a server to become a bar back. You just need a strong back and a good work ethic. And if you pay attention and show interest, the bartenders will bring you along quite quickly. They'll show you all of the tricks that it takes to be a successful bartender, tricks that you can't learn in 40 hours of "class".
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"They stay in business because they aren't expensive to open and operate and they just enough suckers to keep their operation open. I'm not saying that they are "rip-offs" per se; they just aren't necessary to get into the business and a "certification" from them doesn't get you hired (unless they have some sort of placement service and frankly, I'm not sure that I'd want to work for some place that has to rely on an arrangement like that). "

Interesting. I don't think you understand this slippery slope your going down. With this mind set we should just close all colleges and send people directly where they want a job and not what they are qualified for. Ask anyone in HR if they prefer a future employee with a degree or without. I bet they will choose the latter. Even having a degree does not guarantee you a job but it will guarantee the employer will look a little more serious with a piece of paper stating you went above and beyond.

yes experience is the best teacher, but experience with a certification will open a lot more doors.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

You just don't get it. This isn't a degree. It's a working week's worth of study. It isn't even "certification" because there is no body, governmental or otherwise, that enforces standards and grants certification. You're getting a piece of paper that may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on.

Talking to you is like talking to the wall and you really should listen to those of us who know the truth. Bartender "certification" will not open a single door that a hand attached to a warm body wouldn't open. It is a total non-factor in our business.

Believe what you will, but you might actually ask some of the managers in your area if they hire people based on having gone through bartending school.
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gbowen99
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"You just don't get it. This isn't a degree. It's a working week's worth of study. It isn't even "certification" because there is no body, governmental or otherwise, that enforces standards and grants certification. You're getting a piece of paper that may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on."

I get it this is not a degree. Time spent improving your knowledge is time well spent. Why would taking a class on something not improve your value? I know plenty of managers who won't even look at someone without some kind of paper in their craft. Sad but true.

"Talking to you is like talking to the wall and you really should listen to those of us who know the truth. Bartender "certification" will not open a single door that a hand attached to a warm body wouldn't open. It is a total non-factor in our business."

Your truth seams a little blurred to the rest of us. Again Let's say you have two waiters who are looking to become bartenders. One of the waiters just thinks it would be cool to be a bartender. The other just completed bartending school, knows how to make 25 of the most popular drinks, read a book on wines, and wants to own his own bar one day. Who would management want to hire as the new bar back?

"Believe what you will, but you might actually ask some of the managers in your area if they hire people based on having gone through bartending school."

Knowing managers from many different companies it's easy to see how that certification can only help.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"I get it this is not a degree".

Then why bring up degrees and colleges then? This is the furthest thing from a degree. Heck, it's not even a community college course - it's a crash course in bartending done for commercial reasons in order to grab naive people like you.

"Time spent improving your knowledge is time well spent. Why would taking a class on something not improve your value"?

Because it's just a reality in the business that these courses are seen for what they are - a way to separate people from their money. And while people get hired off the street for servers (not in a restaurant like mine, of course), it's just extremely rare for a bartender to get hired off the street, even with a piece of paper from a 40 hour course from some back alley "Mixology Institute".

"I know plenty of managers who won't even look at someone without some kind of paper in their craft. Sad but true".

Not in the restaurant business you don't.

"Talking to you is like talking to the wall and you really should listen to those of us who know the truth. Bartender "certification" will not open a single door that a hand attached to a warm body wouldn't open. It is a total non-factor in our business."

Your truth seams a little blurred to the rest of us. Again Let's say you have two waiters who are looking to become bartenders. One of the waiters just thinks it would be cool to be a bartender. The other just completed bartending school, knows how to make 25 of the most popular drinks, read a book on wines, and wants to own his own bar one day. Who would management want to hire as the new bar back"?

If the guy with the bartending school "diploma" had the personality of a slug and the other guy has an outgoing, easygoing personality, the "diploma dude" is just going to have to wait. It's not about who knows the most drinks. It's about who's the best bartender.

"Believe what you will, but you might actually ask some of the managers in your area if they hire people based on having gone through bartending school."

Knowing managers from many different companies it's easy to see how that certification can only help".

Copout. You're afraid of the answer.

And quit calling it certification because it isn't certification. Not in any real sense.

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