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genise
New member
Username: genise
Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:21 pm: | 
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I don't understand why so many people here make personal attacks. Why can't people just discuss the issues? |
bistroy
Member
Username: bistroy
Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Because of condescending people like you.
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genise
New member
Username: genise
Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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Don't get worked up. I haven't been condescending. I think there's a seige mentality here that tints your view. |
bistroy
Member
Username: bistroy
Post Number: 195
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 07:05 pm: |
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"You should be angry at your restaurant for turning you into part-time fast food workers. But it's not the customer's fault that part of your job's service requirements were downgraded in terms of what the customer gets."
If that's not condescending, then I don't know what is.
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genise
New member
Username: genise
Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 08:42 pm: |
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First of all, that's not personal. Second, that's a description of what's actually happening. The restaurants realized that many people want a more upscale product delivered with a fast food level of service.
Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm simply describing the reality of what's happening. People who get roped into doing take-out *are* providing a lower level of service. And the level of service they are providing is like the service fast food workers provide. Those are just the facts.
If you don't like the facts, talk to your management. Try to persuade them to let you off the take-out duty hook. If they won't do that, look for job at a restaurant that doesn't have take-out.
Regardless of the facts, Bistroy, there's no need for personal attacks. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:49 am: |
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"I'm simply describing the reality of what's happening".
Speaking from the experience of someone who worked at a restaurant which did a lot of takeout, the majority of people tip at least 10%. The average of tips for a shift was usually around 12%, which was fine, since the volume of business was usually around $2000 for a normal night shift. So, the two people it took to juggle as many as 8 $50 to-go orders at a time usually took around $100 per shift AFTER tipout (yes, they have to tip out because even two people couldn't do it on their own).
That's the reality. Which is good because at 2.13 an hour, tips were needed to make it work. The alternative would be paying a server at least $10 an hour to throw themselves on the sword, and that would mean higher prices for everyone. |
genise
New member
Username: genise
Post Number: 43
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 02:58 am: |
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And I would say those people are overpaying for the service they're actually getting.
In your scenario, teleburst, two people are handling $2000 of business per shift. Let's say it's an 8 hour shift. Assuming 45 minutes of breaks per shift, each person is doing $138/hour of business when they're working.
The difference between $10 and 2.13 is $7.87; that's less than 6% of the hourly business. A 12% tip is more than doubling what is necessary to close the gap. If the shifts are more like 6 hours and there are 30 minutes of breaks, that means each person is doing $182/hour in business, meaning the gap is only about 4% of the hourly business.
But you don't need to pay $10 for a person who just does take-out. Pretty much anyone who can run a cash register can do take-out. You might have to pay that much for a full service server, but you could easily get a competent worker for more like $8 or $9 per for take-out work, which is easier than full service work. That's a gap of about 3% (low wage, high hourly business) to 5% (high wage, low hourly business).
It would take about $0.60 on a $15 entree to make up the gap.
That $0.60 could come from customer tips. It could come from your own pocket from tips you got from full service customers; take-out duty would be like a sort of fee you have to pay for the privilege of working the full service customers. It could come from some sort of small service fee. As long as your income ends up being more than the minimum wage for your area, there's really not problem.
But none of that means a customer needs to tip you. If they want to, fine. I don't care if they want to tip you. But the bottom line is that you're only providing fast food level service when you're working the take-out orders. And it's reasonable for customers to only tip you in the same way they'd tip fast food workers for the same service, which is not at all.
(If you want to adjust for tip out, all you have to do is divide that gap amount by the percentage of the tips you retain. If you retain 80% of your tips, the gap above would be $0.75 on the $15 entree.)
Time for bed for me. Good night. |
hacinta
Senior Member
Username: hacinta
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 06:30 am: |
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genise, I have not scrolled through your posts to make my point, but you have a knack for making inflammatory posts. Its not just me that reads them as such, Teleburst, Big Mama and Bistroy. So I don't think I am imagining things here. You have set the tone as to how people respond to you. Now you don't like it?
Your post above "Pretty much anyone who can run a cash register can do take-out." That makes it sound like a trained monkey can do this job. Are you aware that there are people on this board who do take out and might take offence to that statement? Have you ever done take out?
I do not believe that I have been rude to you, yet. However you may want to consider the content of some of your posts before you get sensitive. You may not even be aware of the rude and derogatory manner you have conducted yourself. Just letting you know why you may not be feeling the love. There is malice intended in this post.
Formerly Jammie
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yodeler
New member
Username: yodeler
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:07 am: |
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hacinta,
You and teleburst regard any statement you don't agree with as being offensive. Big Mama and Bistroy consistantly resort to immature name calling. Genise HAS NOT been offensive and has shown quite a bit of restraint in the face of abuse. If you wish to disagree, then do so and state your case as she has done. "Pretty much anyone who can run a cash register can do take-out." is her opinion, it is not offensive. If you disagree, then state your case without the name calling and abuse. |
tipqueen
Intermediate Member
Username: tipqueen
Post Number: 378
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:25 am: |
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I disagree!!!
I can run a cash register! I am a waitress!!
But I know I can't cook nor RUN our Take Away Curbside Service!! Two different extremes of business!! (and service!)
So I am ONE who is a PROVEN example of this FALSE statement!!
(Can't wait to see what kind of names I'll be called!!) |
yodeler
New member
Username: yodeler
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:32 am: |
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Tipqueen,
What is different about take away curbside service that it takes different skills? |
tipqueen
Intermediate Member
Username: tipqueen
Post Number: 379
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:59 am: |
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~the constant ringing of the phone!!!
~guests showing up at spuratic times in spuratic numbers vs. having a set # of tables to take care of.
~the ones that just come in w/o calling ahead
~having to ring everything up to give a total, then add and take off things cuz' they changed their minds, then re-add the new total, while the 3 other lines are ringing, someone wants to leave, someone wants to pay and someone else just showed up....
~it just isn't "organized" and I LOVE organization!!! (or atleast a bit more control)
CALGON TAKE "ME" AWAY!!!!!!! |
tipqueen
Intermediate Member
Username: tipqueen
Post Number: 380
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:01 am: |
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I really think the constant ringing of the phone alone, would drive me absolutely NUTS!!!
But this is all "JUST ME" |
vozveratu
Advanced Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 905
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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Togo work is more fastpaced without all the personal service that is given at tableside.
Tableside is slow paced (depending on the number of tables, how your sat, etc) It's more personal than the togo job.
Which raises a question. Bringing food, taking orders, etc are what we expect to be tipped on, but are we getting tipped on that, or our personality?
Two situations:
Server A: On top of his game. Brings food out correctly, refills drinks on request, etc. Not polite, not friendly, cold and impersonable.
Tip? What percentage?
Server B: Forgets food items, doesn't refill, makes mistakes, etc. Friendly, nice and very personal.
Tip? What percentage?
I await your answers, including you Lords. What the hell. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:40 am: |
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"And I would say those people are overpaying for the service they're actually getting".
No, it's the marketplace talking. People are paying what they think the convenience of getting something other than fast food is worth. There are some cheap people who don't bother, but most tip. I'd say that aout a sixth of people even tip 20% (this is based on my observations of those who do the work).
In your scenario, teleburst, two people are handling $2000 of business per shift. Let's say it's an 8 hour shift. Assuming 45 minutes of breaks per shift, each person is doing $138/hour of business when they're working".
Now I KNOW that you've never worked as a server. You don't take "breaks" in the middle of service. No, the shift is more like 5:30 to 9. At 9 or 9:30, the bar handles any stray orders that might come in.
"The difference between $10 and 2.13 is $7.87; that's less than 6% of the hourly business. A 12% tip is more than doubling what is necessary to close the gap. If the shifts are more like 6 hours and there are 30 minutes of breaks, that means each person is doing $182/hour in business, meaning the gap is only about 4% of the hourly business".
I've already shown that your math is based on a fallacy. So i won't even bother to address it. The premise itself is flawed as well.
"But you don't need to pay $10 for a person who just does take-out. Pretty much anyone who can run a cash register can do take-out".
You are wrong. Simple as that. Youy have never seen it at work. *I* would have a hard time juggling all that has to be done. Sure, I'd eventually adapt, but I've had years of experience. Plus, I would never do it for $10 an hour anyway.
" You might have to pay that much for a full service server, but you could easily get a competent worker for more like $8 or $9 per for take-out work, which is easier than full service work".
Not in a high-volume take-out envoronment as I have described. $2000 in a normal shift is like running 3 to 4 sections. It's a DIFFERENT type of service, something that you don't seem to understand. When I was a tableside in this restaurant, I had different tasks, sure. But in some ways it was easier. It's a different skillset. To use just one example, each sack had to be UNPACKED in front of the guest before checkout because there can be as many as 4 courses of food, plus there's the ole "special order" situation (no garlic, extra sauce, no red peppers, etc)... Try doing that with 5 people standing in line waiting for the food that they ordered on the phone 45 minutes before, but two of them "just happened to be in the neighborhood and I called in my order 20 minutes ago - do you think it's ready yet..." Just one thing that makes it different.
"That's a gap of about 3% (low wage, high hourly business) to 5% (high wage, low hourly business)".
Once again, your math is WAAAY off, and is irrelevant anyway.
"It would take about $0.60 on a $15 entree to make up the gap".
Once again, your math is off. But also, don't forget that it takes $3 worth of sales for every dollar to the bottom line. Restaurants base their menu costs on food cost ratios.
"That $0.60 could come from customer tips. It could come from your own pocket from tips you got from full service customers; take-out duty would be like a sort of fee you have to pay for the privilege of working the full service customers. It could come from some sort of small service fee. As long as your income ends up being more than the minimum wage for your area, there's really not problem".
Now I KNOW for sure that you weren't a server.
"But none of that means a customer needs to tip you. If they want to, fine. I don't care if they want to tip you".
Apparently you do, because you applied your own value judgment when I told you what the reality of the situation was.
"But the bottom line is that you're only providing fast food level service when you're working the take-out orders".
When these guest can come in and order their food and have it handed to them within a couple of minutes, I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's a different, more personal service than fast food.
" And it's reasonable for customers to only tip you in the same way they'd tip fast food workers for the same service, which is not at all".
No, it's reasonable for a person to tip however they deem appropriate. And the mass of people tip at some level, mostly around 10%.
"(If you want to adjust for tip out, all you have to do is divide that gap amount by the percentage of the tips you retain. If you retain 80% of your tips, the gap above would be $0.75 on the $15 entree.)"
Oh, so you concede that the job is difficult enough to need additional help. Good.
"Time for bed for me. Good night".
Hope you had a good sleep.
Oh, ps, some of the serial offenders were college sororities ordering $300 worth of food in 8 grocery bags that would take over an hour to put together. No tip on that Right. If you want to be lumped into to people like that, then oh well. |
penelopemarie
Member
Username: penelopemarie
Post Number: 158
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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genise:
"And I would say those people are overpaying for the service they're actually getting."
so now the people that actually tip me are "overpaying" me. they are not paying me because they are happy with the level of SERVICE i gave them. most of my take out regular 20% tipping customers only order take out, they don't even go in the restaurant to eat. they say my service is better.
"You should be angry at your restaurant for turning you into part-time fast food workers. But it's not the customer's fault that part of your job's service requirements were downgraded in terms of what the customer gets."
you are not trying to degrade what i do and what i make a living from, do you see me making fun of you for what you did or what you do to make a living. that is not your tone? take out got made because the customers started ordering food to go, it was something that customers wanted so the industry came up with curbside to go. instead of having the person come in an order and wait, they tell you to call and then wait while someone brings your food out. you get much better quality food and service and you can have it more specified. it is not just a big mac no pickle no tomato. it is a medium burger with swiss cheese and bacon, bbq, mayo, and the lettuce and toamto on the side.
"I'm simply describing the reality of what's happening. People who get roped into doing take-out *are* providing a lower level of service. And the level of service they are providing is like the service fast food workers provide. Those are just the facts.
If you don't like the facts, talk to your management. Try to persuade them to let you off the take-out duty hook. If they won't do that, look for job at a restaurant that doesn't have take-out."
you are describing what you want to see and what you say is your reality and the fact of take out. how can you say or have an opinion of something you don't know how it really works (given you have never done it)is beyond me. working fast food (as you said you have worked in burger king) is not the same as doing take out for a casual dinning establishment. the result of your "reality" and your so called "facts" is that you save at least 10% (a normal tip) and get the same basic service than anyone else.
i asked to be left in take out. it is not something the managment has roped me into. i have been the main take out person for my restaurant for almost 3 years. i like doing it. i am much better at it than serving tables. i served to give it a try, liked take out more.
"Pretty much anyone who can run a cash register can do take-out."
seeing that the cash register is only part of one of our many trained skills, you not only need to learn how to use it, but you need to know how to do the ticket writing, and how to prepare and package everything. you need to know the menu 100%; what comes with what, what sauces, what dressings, what toppings. the register is not a normal register so not any register can make you into a to go person. you have to have customer service skills, as dealing with customers is not easy. i can see you being an example of that. that is my opinion, made for by the way you come across the posts you have written.
now don't try to tell me you are not being condescending, because well, you are. trying to tell me that what i do is nothing is disrespectful. again you don't see me making fun of your job list that you posted on the other topic.
ps. "Assuming 45 minutes of breaks per shift"
jajajajajaja, breaks, jajajajajajaja we don't get breaks, at all. we work sometimes from opening to close...now i know you have no clue to what you are talking about. fast food employees might get breaks, i don't know, but restaurant people DON'T.... |
regularguy
New member
Username: regularguy
Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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yodeler said:
"Big Mama and Bistroy consistantly resort to immature name calling. Genise HAS NOT been offensive and has shown quite a bit of restraint in the face of abuse. "
Yep, you hit the nail on the head!!! Big Momma and Bistroy are very obnoxious people on this board who will name call reflexively. Other than Big Momma (who has admitted she has not been in the business for 20+ years) those on the outside and former members of the business including me don't call names. If you look at Big Momma and Bistroy's background listed in other posts, it probably explains their rudeness to people.
genise said:
"First of all, that's not personal. Second, that's a description of what's actually happening. The restaurants realized that many people want a more upscale product delivered with a fast food level of service. "
You have not said anything personal, although those still in the business and not in the outside world can have very thin skins on this board. Most people outside would agree with your obsevations.
At many restaurants, what is being done by the server is identical to what the cashier at a McDonalds does. My real life diner restaurant example:
I walk in, order, pay, server turns around puts ticket on kitchen window.
Cook makes food puts it in take out containers, put it on shelf.
Server picks it up opens bag, puts it in, throws in utensils and/or salt packets etc, turns around and hands it to me.
However, as penelopemarie has explained, it is different from the server point of view in many other restaurants even if the customer does not see what is going on.
In, my opinion, there are still a lot of similarites but according to her, her kitchen doesn't box up the food, she has make up the sides, goes over orders with customers to verify they are getting what they ordered, has to do juggling of more orders at once, running stuff out curbside and is paid $2.13 not $6+ an hour like at a fast food place. So in her example the take-out person is doing more than a fast food person. Although a couple of the things would seem to be more logically done by the kitchen.
hacinta said:
So I don't think I am imagining things here. You have set the tone as to how people respond to you. Now you don't like it?
hacinta, there is a difference between violently disagreeing with someone's view and starting to call names. Even when LOA says SOME crazy/ludicrous things, she to my knowledge never has called the servers on the board names.
Some on here have misstated the goal of this board as a place for servers to basically bitch about things. THAT IS NOT ITS PURPOSE. To quote the forum itself:
"The mission of this board is to provide a venue for anyone to discuss issues related to tipping and ettiquette in general." |
bistroy
Member
Username: bistroy
Post Number: 198
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 01:06 pm: |
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"If you don't like the facts, talk to your management. Try to persuade them to let you off the take-out duty hook. If they won't do that, look for job at a restaurant that doesn't have take-out."
Hmmm, that's right, I'll just talk to myself and persuade myself to let myself off the take-out duty hook.
I am the management. I speak up about these things because I used to do the job, and am not above doing any job in the restaurant if needed. I will continue to defend the stance of restaurant employees, whether they are mine or not.
You obviously didn't pay much attention while you were employed at any restaurant, whether you actually worked in one or not. You, like Loads, have no clue as to what you are talking about.
Oh, and as far as the name calling goes, I felt it quite appropriate after reading your meaningless drivel time after time.
(Message edited by bistroy on October 25, 2006)
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big_momma
Intermediate Member
Username: big_momma
Post Number: 331
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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Regularguy, I call people names when they try to rationalize being cheap with all kinds of excuses for not tipping. Even when they have the reasons for tipping pointed out to them, they want to excuse this behavior. If you don't want to tip that's your business, but don't try to rationalize it and make people believe your way is the right way when 90% of the civilized population of the US accept tipping in the US as a social more.
If somebody really thinks that casual dining takeout workers don't work harder than McDonalds workers, they either don't have a lot going on upstairs or they want to excuse not tipping. It's really not a gray area or hard to understand, especially when it's been explained here ad nauseum.
As far as paying for value added, have you ever heard of the VAT tax? Check out the VAT tax in the UK and what it's applied to. If the US can't get people to work for tips because they're not receiving tips, we'll be getting VAT too. Just about every service you receive will come with an 18-20% VAT. I'd bet that would make you eat at home more often.
And then when you people get cornered you say that tipped workers should get better jobs, and that they're paid $2.13 an hour to do all of the things you expect, such as picking vomit up from the floor, side work, etc.
Then some of you talk about value added in services received, but disagree that breakfast workers should get more of a tip percentage because the check is smaller, when they do the same amount of work. Genise is the second person to Lords that says if you don't tip 40% on every meal, you should tip 40% on no meal.
This is where the morality of tipping gets thrown in. There is no morality to tipping. There is also no immorality going on if a waitperson treats their tipping customers better than the cheapskates. You get what you pay for in this life. It's as simple as that. Cue karma.
Hey, if you don't want to tip, don't. But don't come here expecting anyone to agree with you or to change anyone's mind.
Yes, I've been out of the business for a long time, but that doesn't mean I forget how hard it is to work as a server. My life could change tomorrow and I could work as a server again. I like treating my servers well because I remember how my customers made me feel, both the good ones and the bad ones.
I call people names because it's as close as I can get to giving them a dope-slap on the internet. Believe me, I don't say anything online I wouldn't tell you to your face.
Oh and as far as Lords calling names, the only name she calls anyone is idiot........in almost every post. |
hacinta
Senior Member
Username: hacinta
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:17 pm: |
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You are wrong about lords reg, she did start on her very first post calling servers stupid and lazy. She also does it quite regular. Since I am a member of the group in which she refers, I take it personal.
Yodler says; " If you disagree, then state your case without the name calling and abuse." That is exactly what I did. I even wrote a little disclaimer at the end of my post, so there would be no confusion.
Formerly Jammie
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big_momma
Intermediate Member
Username: big_momma
Post Number: 332
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:31 pm: |
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Another thing that bothers me about these posts that excuse not tipping is the self-entitlement that goes with the line of thinking. "They have to serve me, it's their job".
As somebody not currently working in the business but having done it in the past, I like to think I can see both sides of the tipping issue. We eat out often and with a family of four a meal at a restaurant is rarely less than $80. It's ordinarily closer to $150 with a 20% tip.
We rarely eat fast food and I don't see the point of casual take-out. No meal that's stuck into a container and driven a distance is even 50% as good as it would be served fresh on a plate in a restaurant. I think take-out is a cop out for people who either aren't social enough to eat in public or are too cheap to tip at an acceptable level.
But that's just me. |
vitalryan
Member
Username: vitalryan
Post Number: 133
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:21 pm: |
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When is the last time you saw a mcdonalds customer grilling the drive thru order taker about "what a big mac tastes like" and "what sauces come with it" and "can I get this like this, that like that, blah blah blah"
It's so absurdly different than fast food, it's almost not even worth discussing, it's just sad that people like Genise seem to think it is so much alike, Genise, i worked take out before at a casual restaurant, I've also worked as a manager at a mcdonalds back in the day, it's COMPLETELY different, McDonalds is WAY less involved, WAY less. |
coorslite
Intermediate Member
Username: coorslite
Post Number: 456
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:24 pm: |
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Because I am an idiot,lazy, uncaring, seflish and only care about my money thief... I'm going back to watching my paint dry. Because I am a moron that doesn't care about innocent people that I have stole from I am going to go watch my paint dry. Because I will not speak my mind anymore or try to give any points of view I am going to go watch my paint dry. Because it is insane of me to think that by talking to people that know what they are talking about anyone can learn from them I am going to go watch my paint dry. Because I don't care and would rather chitchat with friends, mourn and rejoice with customers and fellow employees, take care of my customers needs and wants, I'm going to go watch my paint dry.
So... that said... I'll be back when the paint dries... or you can find me on watching paint dry topic. |
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