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wildstar
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I checked out this site based on the link in one of the threads. bitterwaitress.com/std/ states:

"a [crappy] tip is, by my definition, any gratuity under 17% for service which one's peers would judge as adequate or better (eg. orders are correct, on time, special requests are honored, etc.)"

As I was growing up, 15% was considered to be the standard tip percentage for average service that met the expectations of the customer. Exceptionally good, or noticably above average service, would be 20% (or more at the customers discretion).

This sites criteria for a crappy tip suggests that a tip of 15% is an insult to waitstaff everywhere. Yet most of the people posting on this site don't seem to be complaining about 15% tips with anywhere near the bitterness of that sites creator.

MY DEFINITION OF AVERAGE SERVICE: Service that meets the needs of the customer, politely, accurately, in a timely manner, with proper handeling of reasonable special requests (such as extra mayo on the side).

THEREFORE I ASK, based on the above definition of average service, is 15% a decent, normal tip to be expected for average service?

I realize that many on this board provide above average service, and should be tipped accordingly. However, I would like to see opinions of what is considered a normal tip percentage. Please include the type of establishment with your percentage for the purposes of full and proper clarity.
I haven't failed, I've just found lots of ways that don't work. (Paraphrasing of Ben Franklin)
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jammie
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Wildstar, you are very tactful. I work in a full serve bar in the airport, we also serve food. 15% is an acceptable tip, I think with inflation and the way the economy works 20% is more standard these day. As always tipping is up to the guest.
When I started working at the airport I was waiting tables, a couple weeks ago I was promoted to bartender. Seems people tip a higher percentage on drinks. I also make more hourly. Yipee for me.
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wildstar
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you jammie. I appreciate our response. I look forward to seeing more input from others so that I can get a good idea of the general tipping standard.
I haven't failed, I've just found lots of ways that don't work. (Paraphrasing of Ben Franklin)
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george
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The reason tipping expectations are going up is because our public is being denied the truth of what is actually happening to their tip. Businesses across our country are stealing the financial benefits of the tips our public has intended for certain workers. Our media refuses to expose the truth of what is happening to our public's tips. Our public is being defrauded by federal laws which are currently allowing employers to force employees to give part of their tips which the public has presented them to other workers. Our public is being defrauded by federal laws which are currently allowing employers to take many of the financial benefits of our public's tips away from those who receive tips via the tip credit provision and the allowance of employer required tip pooling.

A customer who tips in most states can have his entire tip credited to the business's payroll expenses without the customer's knowledge or consent. Those working for employers who are fraudulently crediting the tips intended for certain wokers to the business have been forced to solicit more tips from the public in an effort to thrwart off the fraudulent efforts of their employers. Businesses want the tips our public has presented us. They will do anything to attain them for themselves including influencing the media to keep the truth from the public.

How can you not expect waiters to solicit more tips when their employer is being allowed to steal the financial benefits from them.

If waiters speak out and tell customers the truth they will be fired, so instead they have been forced to solicit more tips in the hopes that they might end up benefiting a little more from them.
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linda
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

15% for good service. Add or deduct for good or bad.

I would also like to add...if your party is 8 or higher...then minimum should be 18%. Mainly because a party of 8 will take up more time due to more requests. (experienced servers know what I mean.)

Personally...if I were to sit at a table for a long time...I will also add to the tip to make up for what the server would have made if they would have turned the table.
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wildstar
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Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Linda, Thank you for your comments. My friends an I always left bigger tips when we stayed and chatted for hours. Our average bill was around 20-25.00, and we usually left 10.00 or better, depending on how long we stayed, and how much the server needed to do. At that time, I was 23, and their average age was 19. If all of us got together, the average tip per person was 5.00 times the 6 of us, and out total bill was maybe 35.00. However, we knew that we were a handful to have to deal with, so we felt we should compensate the server for their troubles. Since we usually went to the Denny's every time, and tipped well, we were always welcome. They knew when we walked in what to expect from us.

George, Thank you for informing me of such practices. I always give my tip in cash to the server directly, so that I know they got it. If they want to stick it in their pocket, and say nothing, that is their choice. I agree that forcing the tips to be disbursed is wrong. However, I also agree that the bussers should get a little something for their efforts.

FROM NOW ON I'll have to ask about the tipping policies of the establishment, and keep notes as to which places I need to tip higher for the server.

MEANWHILE GEORGE: You did not answer my basic question regarding acceptable percentage, and type of establishment.
I haven't failed, I've just found lots of ways that don't work. (Paraphrasing of Ben Franklin)
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george
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Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My answer widstar is it all depends on how much the employer is stealing from the waiter. If the employer is not taking a tip credit on the employee and is paying them the regular minimum wage or higher the amount might be lower, however, if the employer is forcing the waiter to give part of his tips to 10 other workers the tip amount might need to be higher. You see it all depends on how much the employer is stealing from the waiter.
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vozveratu
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Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh man, this is getting way comical. It's almost to the point where having a debate is moot for the simple reason that you can't answer a question without stating how illegal everything is for Waiters across the USA. tsk tsk tsk.

Peace
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peteb
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 06:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tips which arrive via a credit/debit card slip...

How does the employer subtract the tip and give it to the employee? What about tax/charges on the portion which is tip?

Eg. Meal $100.00
Tip added $20.00

Turnover for the outlet is $120.00. I don't see that the employer wants to simply go to the till and take a $20 bill out and hand it to the server.

Can somebody explain how this is handled? ie. Card charges, tax, book keeping, employee payment?
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vozveratu
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It pulls up on the checkout report. Most computers these days take all the tips on credit cards and add them up and this is the amount the owner/manager owes to the server at closing time, minus tip-out. Or, they take all the tips and divide among the servers for tip pooling. The manager then sends the batch report to visa/mc/discover/etc and the credit companies send monies to the restaurant as a credit. Basically reinburse <-(dang, can't spell) for the tips given.

There is more to it, but I basically simplified the practice.
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peteb
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

vozveratu,

Thanks for explaining that, but I fail to see how this can be achieved from an accounting point of view.

If a manager hands out cash to an employee, then that is wages and surely subject to deductions.

Also, if the manager hands out gross tips ($20), by the time the credit card company has taken their cut, the manager loses out.

In addition, how does the manager present this in the accounts? Income $120.00 (shows on the till) yet only $100 gets banked, the till (cash) is down, and the manager has to enter a balancing entry against what?

I don't say that anybody is doing wrong, but an auditor would have a nightmare with this.

Maybe that's what you meant by the '...more to it'.

Cash is best. If inconvenient.
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's pretty simple. First of all, the server owes for all food purchased, minus any comps, discounts and voids. The guest gives the server money and the server must turn over the net sales amount to pay for the food which left the kitchen (minus those exceptions of course). All money taken in from the guest is counted toward that total, including the credit card tips. When you subtract the total amount of money from the total amount of sales, and there are tips involved, AND sales are all credit cards, you get a negative number and that's the money owed to the server from the restaurant. However, there are generally cash transactions involved as well so that moeny has to be factored in. The more cash on hand, the less the restaurant will owe the server, since they already have some of the money from food and beverage sales in hand. At some point, the cash sales will actually make it possible for the server to owe THE HOUSE (in fact, oftentimes that's the case).

Cash tips are supposed to be declared at the end of the shift by declaring a total amount of daily tips after tipout. This is a legal and moral requirement. So, just because you give cash to a server doesn't mean that they are supposed to not declare it for tax purposes. Many servers avoid doing this and this is WRONG, pure and simple. All tips are considered income and should be declared. Of course, the more tips that are declared, the more the gap between what we servers are withheld from actual income by the IRS and what we end up owing at the end of the year, since the only money that is withheld by our companies comes from our virtually non-existent "wages". That's why you hear that most servers don't ever even get a paycheck and why we have to live SOLELY on our tips.

Hope this clears that up.
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wildstar
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Pete: Interesting question, wrong thread (completely off topic). Good responses vozveratu and teleburst.

George: I guess you never watch The O'Reilly Factor. I believe in a "NO SPIN ZONE". Based on that, please stop bloviating and answer the initial question. To save you having to scroll up, I have pasted the original question in here for your convenience.


MY DEFINITION OF AVERAGE SERVICE: Service that meets the needs of the customer, politely, accurately, in a timely manner, with proper handeling of reasonable special requests (such as extra mayo on the side).

THEREFORE I ASK, based on the above definition of average service, is 15% a decent, normal tip to be expected for average service?


While I appreciate being enlightened as to the legalities and illegalities of tipping in the United States of America. I respectfully submit that this topic should have it's own thread.

As I also said above, from now on, I'll ask the server about tipping policies at their establishment so that I can be sure they will get as much as I want them to get. If that means that I have to tip 18% so they will get 15%, then that is what I will do.
"NO BLOVIATING" -- BILL O'REILLY
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, if you want me to get 15%, you're going to have to tip me 23%, since I have to tip out around 8%. That's right, I give up about 45% of my tips. But my situation isn't as common as most. I'm used to tipping out more like 3%. It IS a bit of a shock to hand over $70 night after night. Fortunately most nights are better than last night. <g>
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jammie
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

peteb, when I was waiting tables at my job it worked as Teleburst explained. I am currently bartending and have a cash drawer. All transactions are done on the computer, when I have a charge tip, I take it from the till, upon cashing out the check. That goes in the tip cup along with any cash tips. At the end of my shift I turn in my bank(cash drawer) and get a computer generated report. It has the amount of charge card tips, I subtract that amount from all the money in the tip cup. That amount has already been declared, what is left is what I claim for my tips for that day.We are taxed on the total amount, we claim and the charge tips. It is deducted from our paychecks, along with medical insurance and 401k, guess who has to pay the company every two weeks?
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wildstar
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Teleburst: I remember seeing that tip out was about 3% somewhere else on this board, which is how I came to the 18% in my last post. Considering that your tip out is significantly higher, I would not have a problem compensating for the higher tip out amount.

I don't know if I've read the name or type of the place you work at. I think I've heard you mention expensive bottles of wine. If that's correct, I'll worry about it when I make enough money, and move out of my Blue Collar lifestyle, as such indulgences are a bit above my current station in life. (LOL)
"NO BLOVIATING" -- BILL O'REILLY
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vozveratu
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

As far as accounting goes for the paying of waiters, paychecks usually are 0.00. Jammie touched basics on it, but when a server declares what they made, it's added into the check as wages, then your subtracted for taxes, fica, ss, etc, then the tips are taken back out. If your hourly wage is not enough to cover the deductions, then it goes in this order of you owing money to the goverment: FICA first, Social Security paid next, Then State, then Fed is last. You pay state and fed at the end of the year when you report how much you made and how much tax you didn't pay during the year.

Accounting nightmare? Maybe not since the system is assisting thousands of restaurants for the past 70 years or so.

Peace
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jammie
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

wildstar, that might have been me. I mentioned where I work and a 2% required tip-out.Now I have a little differnt situation going on.Same company differnt positon, we dont have a certain amount to tip-out.We only serve pizza and 4 kinds of it. Us bartenders are too busy to stick pizza in the oven so we have a guy in the back who does that and in his down time he helps us, haul ice, set up and take down.He usually gets tipped $30-$40 a day.Nothing says thanks for your help like cash.
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george
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you Teleburst for finally shedding some truth on the question. Teleburst stated, Well, if you want me to get 15%, you're going to have to tip me 23%. That is what I am saying.

Tipping is completely up to the customer. It is not for anyone else to tell you what to tip, however, if you want to give a 15% tip to the waiter there are issues which must be taken into account such as how much the waiter is being required to tip out and how much of the tips presented to the waiter the business is crediting to themselves through the tip credit.

For intance, in Colorado the minimum wage for employees who receive no tip income is $5.15 an hour. That means that if a waiter receives no tips for the day he must be paid at least $5.15 an hour. However the minimum wage for a waiters or other tipped employees who receive at least $24.00 during a days work is as little $2.13 an hour or up to $24.00 a day less. The first $24.00 in tips presented to waiters in Colorado goes directly to reducing the businesses payroll expenditures for that employee. Now if the waiter is also required to share his tips with other workers, which Colorado along with many other states are allowing employers to do, the waiter is forced to give up even more of the tips you have presented him to other workers so that the employer can call them tipped employees and pay them $24.00 less every day.

The bottom line is it all depends on the buiness's policies concerning tips. If you want to give a waiter lets say $20.00, many consideration come into play. The first consideration is how much is the waiter being forced to tip out to other people. In many cases waiters are being required to give 25% of that $20.00 to other workers which leaves the waiter with only $15.00 for himself. Then there is the issue of what percentage of that tip is going to the reduction of the waiter's hourly wages. If the waiter earns let's say $90 in total tips for the day the business is going to reduce his hourly wages by the maximum tip credit allowance to $2.13 an hour, which is $24.00 less than what they would have had to pay him if he received no tips at all for the day. So in actuality the waiter, because he has received $90.00 in tips, is actually receiving $24.00 less for the day in hourly wages. The true financial benefit form the customer's tips to the waiter is only $66.00, $90.00 minus $24.00. Now from that $66.00 we must substract the 25% tip out on the $90.00 in tips the waiter received from customer which would be $18.00 lesaving the waiter with only $48.00 for the day.

In this example the waiter whom the customer wanted to tip $20.00 will on average only be allowed to keep $48.00 of every $90.00 in tips received. The waiter in this example will only receive 53% of what customers actually present him. Therefore to answer your question, if you are tipping in Colorado and you want the waiter to have a $20.00 or 15% tip on a $130.00 bill you should tip nearly 30% if you truly want the waiter to have a 15% tip. The restaurant is stealing 47% of the tips you present him.

How ironic is this when our own government has stated the following;

To constitute a `tip' in the commonly accepted meaning of the term, it is inherent in the nature thereof that certain fundamental characteristics be present. It must be presented by the customer free from compulsion; he must have the unrestricted right to determine the amount thereof; and such amount should not be the subject of negotiation or dictated by employer policy. Generally, the customer has the right to determine precisely who shall be the recipient of his generosity.

Clearly employer policy is dictating the amount of the customer's tip.


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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I've never named the restaurants that I have worked in, simply because it's not my right to involve them in my conversations here. However, the place I USED to work had an extensive wine list and had a PPA of about $35 - 50. At my current restaurant, we don't have a bottle over $60 and my PPA is about $20 at night and around $14 at lunch. So you certainly could afford to eat there. I would always assume an approximate 3% tipout and you won't be too far off. Our restaurant has a larger support staff (which we need) and therefore we have a larger tipout than most. We have 4 food runners and a server's assistant (busboy, if you will) for every 2 servers (plus there's the bar as well). Most restaurants get by with sharing one or two server's assistant for the whole restaurant. Unfortunately, because of our extreme volume and intense service requirements, we need far more help with our service.

Thanks for considering our tipout requirements. Most people don't care, nor is it that much of a concern for them really. I'm still grateful for at least a minimum of 15% if I do well, although I sort of expect 20% for my usual level of service, and I'm VERY grateful for the numerous 20+% tips that I get. As happened to me last night, it really hurts to get $10 on $95 or $10 on $130 though. It takes a lot of great tips to make up for making $2 serving three women for two hours with their extensive bar bill (I wonder if they'd have the nerve to tip their bartender a quarter on their $8 drinks). Fortunately, I still ended up walking with 10% of my pretax sales, so I consider myself lucky to have made up that much ground, considering that on $200 of my sales, I made about 8% BEFORE tipout. That means I waited on those 9 people for free when you average it out.
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vozveratu
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Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

To constitute a `tip' in the commonly accepted meaning of the term, it is inherent in the nature thereof that certain fundamental characteristics be present. It must be presented by the customer free from compulsion; he must have the unrestricted right to determine the amount thereof; and such amount should not be the subject of negotiation or dictated by employer policy. Generally, the customer has the right to determine precisely who shall be the recipient of his generosity.

Do you know what this law is applying to? It's not applying that the customer has the right to tip one person for the full amount he means to tip, it protects the customer from having the tip applied to things the manager is forcing the server to pay that is illegal or not reviewed before being hired, such as; walk-outs, breakages, etc.

It also protects the customer from being forced to tip without policy (ie parties of 6 or more).

I can't force a tip on two black people and not force a tip on two white people, etc.

That's what the law is doing. Your attempting to change the definition of the law in attempting to change your manager/owner policies.

If the policies you are having to follow is causing you to pay-out more than you should make, then a lawyer would be prudent.

But in a nut shell, customers are protected by the law you stated for the simple reason that some restaurants attempt to auto-tip or force a tip without policies in place. Some that I see are number of people in the party, or if the customer uses a Gift Certificate the tip is included before the discount so the server isn't stiffed. But this is all suppose to be in view, ie on the menu, before the bill is presented. If not, the restaurant could be fined.

Peace
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wildstar
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Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

While I can accept the fact / idea of the tip out process to give the bussboys something, It kinda lights my fuse that after various edeuctions, many of you end up effectively end up paying them to work there. I suppose if I were averaging 30.00 an hour consistantly, that it might not bug me. Since I'm currently making just under half that, if I had that much in deductions from my pay check, I think I'd change occupations.

Fortunately, as a Mechanic, every tool I buy is a tax write off, as are several other expenses. While I'm sure you can itemize some things out, I'd still prefer to get a check back. Well, I'll take the check back until I can trade that for paying 50,000.00 in taxes.

Yes most people don't even know about the tip out process. I didn't know about it until I found this board, somewhat by accident initially. However, I'm glad that I did, and have learned what servers have to deal with on a constant basis. The servers in the area where I live will be glad I found this site. Now I know to compensate for tip out (employer extortion) when I tip. Generally only other servers know to do that.
"NO BLOVIATING" -- BILL O'REILLY
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george
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Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would love for everyone on this board to explain how much their hosts, busboys and food runners were acually receiving in tip outs. Employers in many states are reducing their wages to $2.13 an hour because they are receiving tips through voluntary and employer required tip outs. How much are these rich people making that they should be denied minimum wage raises? Many states are raising the miniumum wage for all employee except those you receive tip income. If waiters are only tipping out 3% of their total sales to the busboys they can't be making that much.
If these busboys and others are only receiving $40 a day in tips the tip credit is begining to take everything they receive as tips. Right now Massachusetts allows employers to pay tipped employees up to $33 a day less if they receive tip income. That means that if a busperson in Massachusetts only receives $33 in tips for a day he is only going to earn minimum wage. While he is allowed to take his tips home, the employer, due to the tip credit, is allowed to pay him $33 less in wages for the day. In actuality the busboy is taking home no more than he would have if no one tipped him. Many other states are raising their minumum wage for non-tipped workers while freezing the minimum wage for tipped employees. When states raise their minimum wage but refuse to raise the minimum wage for tipped employes it ends up giving businesses a bigger tip credit. For intance, If a state raises it's minimum wage from $5.15 to $6.25 but leaves the minimum wgae for tipped employees at $2.13 an hour, instead of employers being allowed to credit the first $24 that an employees receives in tips to the business's payroll expenses they are allowed to credit the first $33 that an employees receives in tips to the business's payroll expenses.

This whole system is geared at defrauding our public and stealing money from some of our poorest workers. The public who thinks that they are bettering the livings of some of the poorest workers are unknowingly and unconcentually giving tips to the business because of the tip credit.
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jammie
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Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

wildstar, us workers that commonly tip-out to co-workers consider these people support staff. Most of the time these workers are directly involved in assisting us. If it wernt for the busboys, hostess and bartenders, we wouldnt be able to generate as much of an income. It is an accepted practice in our industry. Usually the only time there is issue over this is if you have a slacker.
You are right when a person make 30 bucks an hour you dont mind tipping-out.But when you have those crappy shifts you down size the tip- out.When I worked serving tables the hostess was also a busperson. She made 7 bucks an hour, plus what we tipped her out. She earned every penny of it!!!!!
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wildstar
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Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My bad jammie
"NO BLOVIATING" -- BILL O'REILLY
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teleburst
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"I would love for everyone on this board to explain how much their hosts, busboys and food runners were acually receiving in tip outs. Employers in many states are reducing their wages to $2.13 an hour because they are receiving tips through voluntary and employer required tip outs".

You might want to do some REAL research. I can only speak from my experience, but I don't know any restaurants that pay the listed people 2.13 an hour. The two restaurants that I've worked at that have employed those classes of workiers have paid them 4.50 an hour (when servers are paid 2.13 an hour). Of course, I've never worked at a restaurant that has tipped hosts either. I understand that there is the rare restaurant that does this, but I'll bet that even those hosts are paid WELL above minimum wage.

We have told you repeatedly how much these folks are making. Why you aren't paying attention is beyond me.

BTW, how much do YOU make per hour?
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jammie
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

wildstar, no bad. You just didnt know. Now you do!!!! Being removed from the indusrty, how could you know?
This is why I think you are educated, and have a sence of fair play. You came onto this open forum with legitamate questions. Never once have you been challenging or demeaning. You present yourself very well. I appreciate having an informational open discussion group, instead of a bunch of ignorant INDIOTS.
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george
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Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Teleburst I don't make so much that our government should allow employers to steal part of the tips I receive from customers.

Even if where you've worked they have paid busboys $4.50 an hour that's still less than miinimum wage. Why are these busboys making less than minimum wage when they obviously don't make that much money in tips to begin with? Why are these employees along with waiters and other tipped employees being singled out as Americans who don't deserve raises? If you are actually going to argue with me about this, I will never beleive you are really a tipped employee.

There are undeniably hundreds of thousands of workers who are receiving tips from waiters due to employer mandated tip outs that are being paid less than minimum wage. Why when an employer doesn't even have to pay them a fair wage are waiters being forced to give them part of their tips? Remember what the court's said "the issue of tip pooling is about fairness".
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wildstar
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm just guessing at this, but seing as how Teleburst has obviously been a server for many years, it MIGHT just be possible that those particular bussboys were making minimum wage AT THAT TIME! Also, based on my above guess, it is also possible that they MIGHT have received a raise or two since then. But then again, I'M JUST GUESSING HERE.
"I haven't failed, I've just found lots of ways that don't work." -- Paraphrasing of Thomas Edison
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vozveratu
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There are undeniably hundreds of thousands of workers who are receiving tips from waiters due to employer mandated tip outs that are being paid less than minimum wage.

And it is these workers who wake up in the morning and say, "Hell with this! I'm not making enough, so it's time to make some changes in my life."

You either except the facts/policies that the employer has in place or you move on to something better.

Your stating, 'stealing', 'robbing', employee/customer rights', etc. The employers that I have worked for are doing the normal. Having servers tip-out the help they receive from the support staff. The support staff is paid a higher wage because they are not tipped by the customer. Hostess, bartenders, and bussers can make anywhere from 4.00 - 10.00 an hour, plus tip-out. Legal, normal and understood by the waitstaff.

Do I like it? Course not. I'd rather keep the money, but what's the cost? Losing the help. I'd like to tip-out then, anyday.

Peace
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george
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Wldstar, that's why I have stated "busboys in many states". The simple fact that there are some making more than $2.12 doesn't nullify the fact that many busboys are receiving much lower rates of pay than the $4.50 rate that teleburst seems to suggest all busboys are being payed.
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teleburst
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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Teleburst I don't make so much that our government should allow employers to steal part of the tips I receive from customers".

The next time that you demand disclosures from the rest of us, I hope that everyone remembers that you refuse to provide disclosures yourself.

"Even if where you've worked they have paid busboys $4.50 an hour that's still less than miinimum wage. Why are these busboys making less than minimum wage when they obviously don't make that much money in tips to begin with"?

When I make $100 in tips, my busboy is likely to make $70. Even the lunch "busboys" (we actually call them server's assistants, not the demeaning name "busboy") routinely make $40 - 60 a shift, which is more than some lunch servers make in some restaurants.

"Why are these employees along with waiters and other tipped employees being singled out as Americans who don't deserve raises"?

I know that you're as dense as a brick wall, but I'll say it again. We get raises when inflation kicks in. That's pretty much the same as many workers in America. And we create our OWN raises by upping the level of our service.

"If you are actually going to argue with me about this, I will never beleive you are really a tipped employee".

I don't are WHAT you believe. I'm not the one hiding my occupation and not giving REAL world figures.

You also write:

"Wldstar, that's why I have stated "busboys in many states". The simple fact that there are some making more than $2.12 doesn't nullify the fact that many busboys are receiving much lower rates of pay than the $4.50 rate that teleburst seems to suggest all busboys are being payed".

First of all, I wrote, "I can only speak from my experience..." This means that I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm giving hard facts. I also have knowledge of a lot of restaurants in my area and NOT ONE pays anyone other than servers 2.13 an hour. Now *you* on the other hand has definitely given the impression that busboys in many states are paid that this rate, but you don't back up your assertions. I think that you're just talking out of your backside...


There are undeniably hundreds of thousands of workers who are receiving tips from waiters due to employer mandated tip outs that are being paid less than minimum wage. Why when an employer doesn't even have to pay them a fair wage are waiters being forced to give them part of their tips? Remember what the court's said "the issue of tip pooling is about fairness".
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george
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Do you want to go on record as stating that there are not many restaurant workers other than waiters being paid $2.13 an hour. It only takes a few to show that there is an injustice. There are many, meaning thousands if not hundreds of thousands of workers who do not receive tips, as defined under federal law, who are being payed less than minimum wage. Federal laws state that a tip is a sum presented by a customer. Unless you or someone else can prove that customers have presented these workers tips and that they are not simply being given part of the tipped employees tips by management policy then these workers should not be getting paid less than minimum wage. If your busboys who receive $4.50 an hour are receiving tips because your employer is requiring other workers to share their tips with them, then the busboys are not eligible for the tip credit under federal law. They should be paid minimum wage. Federal laws state that only tips received as money belonging to the employee which he may use as he chooses free of any control of the employer may be used in determining if an employee is elligible to be paid less than minimum wage through the tip credit allowance. If busboys are receiving tips from other workers, due to company policies, clearly the business has a policy which is controlling the tips received by it's workers. Such employees under federal law cannot be paid less than minimum wage.
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vozveratu
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If busboys are receiving tips from other workers, due to company policies, clearly the business has a policy which is controlling the tips received by it's workers. Such employees under federal law cannot be paid less than minimum wage.

Your wrong. It clearly states in all tax laws, supported by the labor laws, supported by state laws that the support staff is required to report tips to the IRS if the employer uses a tip-out or tip-pool method. The policies (which you state are illegal) are recognized by law as acceptable. Which means that you would need to contact your congressman to pass a new law abolishing the tip-out/tip-pool procedure.

Peace
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vozveratu
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There are many, meaning thousands if not hundreds of thousands of workers who do not receive tips, as defined under federal law, who are being payed less than minimum wage.

This is illegal. If the person is making less than min wage, he/she has the right to report the situation to the Labor Laws of their state.

Peace

Ed
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vozveratu
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Federal laws state that a tip is a sum presented by a customer.

Yes and no. Customers tip directly and then there are employees who are tipped indirectly, clearly stated in IRS laws, which are supported by the state/federal laws. Indirect tips are given by direct tipped employees, ie a waiter giving money to a busser.

Clearly states that the indirect tips need to be declared because in MY report, it shows that I tip out a certain amount so that I DON'T get taxed on funds I gave away for a service. All in the IRS.GOV websites. Read up on it.

Peace
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vozveratu
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If your busboys who receive $4.50 an hour are receiving tips because your employer is requiring other workers to share their tips with them, then the busboys are not eligible for the tip credit under federal law.

It's not a law. There are restaurants you pay more to bussers and do not require waiters to tip out. It's common practice, which IS supported by the law. It's legal for a restaurant to include these policies in it's 'payroll procedures'.

What would be illegal would be the managers taking more than is allowed. This is vague in most laws I have read, but a lawyer would come in handy in this situation.

Peace
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teleburst
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Do you want to go on record as stating that there are not many restaurant workers other than waiters being paid $2.13 an hour".

I will go on record as not knowing a single restaurant that pays anyone other than servers 2.13 an hour. That doesn't mean that there might not be a rare exception. However, I think it's now incombent on you to provide proof of YOUR assertion. You haven't brought anything to the table. How about some concrete examples of your sweeping generalization.
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nuvola09
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Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I only know of one place that pays bussers the same as servers. That is the upscale place I worked at. The workers there pull in so much money that the bussers make almost as much as the waitstaff after they are tipped out. They also bust their butts there, they deserve every penny that the waitstaff gives them

"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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george
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Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

TELEBURST CORRECTION # 31

Here teleburst,

Outback paid hosts and servers $2.125 per hour not including tips and tip outs.

This is from,
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT

Kilgore v. Outback.

http://lw.bna.com/lw/19981117/975902.htm

This court case was from 1996, however it clearly proves that when restaurants are allowed to pay such low wages they will.

Now you can't say you know of no restaurant that pays anyone other than servers 2.13 an hour.

Why do you always make me waste my time disproving your lies? There are restaurants all over this country who are paying sub minimum wages to host, busboys and many other tipped out workers.

Now how about you bringing something to the table like some common sense.
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scarlett
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Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In the restaurant where I work, the busboy is paid the same rate as the servers.

~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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teleburst
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Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"There are restaurants all over this country who are paying sub minimum wages to host, busboys and many other tipped out workers".

I never claimed otherwise. Heck, *I* get paid sub minimum wage. Now, how much did *you* say you made an hour again?
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avalanche
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Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would like to ask where most of you are from. I see a lot of talk about min wage..2.13 I used to live in TX and made 2.13. Now I live in California, things are a lot different here! 6.75 is min wage in CA no matter what. In CA we also, for the most part, dont get taxed on our credit card tips. the way it works out here, all sales are taxed 8%. so if i have $1000 in sales im taxed on $80. the reason for this is because of tipping out.
***I am in the "Fine Dining" Industry, and things can be a little different when it comes to tipping and tipping out.***
At my work we tip out 2% of our food sales to the Expediter and Runner, 1% of total sales to the bar and 3% of total sales to the bussers. REGARDLESS of how mush WE get tipped by the guest.

so....if i get a 15% tip the it works out, as far as taxes are concerned. if we make more, then we are supposed to claim it.


IMO
I think tipping should always be based on performance not "standard". Because of this servers in my industry should make 20-30%. I know most of you will drop your jaws at this, but i average about 25% taking home about 19% of sales, so this IS the norm.

In places like Florida with lots of guests from out of the USA they will charge a 20% mandatory grat. this due to the fact that a lot of countries DONT tip.
EX. last night I had 3 guests born in Canada and live in Japan. their bill was $320 and they left me $20...this means that i paid about $3 for them to sit there after tax and tip out!!! (by the way they didnt tip the valet at all)
I used to work at a private club, at the time 5 star. EVERYTHING got an auto grat of 20%. I do want to point out again, that in fine dinning you should ALWAYS get great to perfect service.

I know it may sound like I make a lot of money, but when it comes to the cost of living AAAHHHHHH!!!
my fathers house is the same size as mine, but he has land and lives in Texas. his house $38,000 and mine $750,000

uhhhh.....

Av
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jammie
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Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 02:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

AV, I get alot of Canadians at the airport in Florida. Im going to take a few home with me to teach me how to be frugal. I will not say all are awful tippers but most are.

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