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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3112
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 09:48 am: | 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/18/opinion/18damrosch.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=12533 70315-26VmfU4JHeizBljYVVhxfw
Keep in mind that this was written by Phoebe Damrosch, who worked at Per Se, where they indeed roll a service charge into the price of a meal.
She makes some good points about professionalism, but I'm not sure that paying a wage would help that in the average restaurant.
Also, Per Se *is* a European-style restaurant where you dine for hours on a 12 course menu for $275 a person (service included). It only has about 12 tables (excluding their two new private dining areas). So it makes sense to include a service charge when you only turn your tables once a night and your diners are there for 3 hours.
Not only that, their prices have gone up a whopping 25% since they went to a service included pricing 4 years ago (not counting the service charge, of course). That should give people pause about doing the same in more earthbound restaurants.
She doesn't really strongly make the case for the average restaurant to switch over, especially since restaurants are already doing some of the very things that she'd like to see. Even as humble of a place like P.F. Chang's requires their servers to taste every menu item, every sauce, and many of the exotic ingredients in their dishes, and we even had wine tastings and wine and alcohol training sessions. Where I work now, we have wine tastings and field trips occasionally (usually sponsored by the liquor companies), we taste some of our daily specials and we also have a small "seasonal menu" which we tasted when it was rolled out.
And I think that she forgets, not having worked in a mainstream restaurant in a decade, that the "upselling thing" is required by most of our employers. We are docked on our secret shopper reports if we don't mention bottled water by name, if we don't suggest a specific appetizer or two, offer dessert, coffee, after dinner drinks, etc. So it's not just the "greedy waiter" responsible for all of this upselling - it's part of our job description and a job requirement. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 709
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 12:54 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Not only that, their prices have gone up a whopping 25%
Neecey said:
Whopping? Are you implying that 25% is an astronomical... oh excuse me "extreme" rise in price? However the way I see it, if I was used to tipping 15% then it's really a 10% increase. If I'm used to 18% it's really a 7% increase and if 20% is my norm then it's really a 5% increase. That puts a more realistic impression on what the increase actually is. 25% doesn't seem whopping at all if you look at it the correct way.
Now if the concept of the increase alone (regardless of the percent) is what's the focus then I guess the term *whopping* wasn't necessary in your observation.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3113
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 01:05 pm: |
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No, the price has gone up 25% *not counting* the 20% service charge. If i were used to tipping 15%, then the total increase would be a more whopping 30%.
When they added the service charge, the price was $175. Adding 20% brought it up to $210 overnight (no change if you were used to tipping 20% - only 5% more if you were a 15% tipper). The current price, including service charge is $275. That's a little over 24% of an increase absent the service charge. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3116
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 02:07 pm: |
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Ahhh, the sound of thundering silence. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 714
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 03:40 pm: |
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So it's an astronomical increase which makes it a significant concern. Okay. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 829
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 09:13 pm: |
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And people will be banging on the doors to get in. The owners will surely pass on this increase on to the help. LOL LOL LOL |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3118
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 08:53 am: |
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"So it's an astronomical increase which makes it a significant concern. Okay. :-)"
Once again, tragic that you can't even say, "Gee, I was wrong".
Actually, not tragic - laughable. Especially coming from a person accusing others of "always having to be right".
Mamacita, you crack me up! |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 12:05 pm: |
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Lower turnover resulting from a more professional employment package would encourage restaurants to invest time and resources in training.
Budgets would require more money at time of opening. Many family owned restaurants would struggle just to keep the doors open for a month.
They might offer menu tastings (important with the ever-changing “seasonal” menus fashionable now), wine and spirits education, guest speakers (winemakers, foragers, game hunters), employer-sponsored travel and dining, mentoring programs that connect newcomers to leaders in their field, externships for service staff, and — most important — cross training between the kitchen and the dining room.
HA! I don't see this happening in Denny's, Chili's or Waffle House.
So what would be the solution to those places? I don't expect anyone to answer, but do realize these so called 'solutions' on doing away with tipping would require ALL levels of service and restaurant types across the USA.
Tipping seems to be the only thing that works from Joe's Diner in the middle of North Dakota, to Morton's Steakhouse in the middle of Chicago. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 716
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 02:20 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Once again, tragic that you can't even say, "Gee, I was wrong".
Neecey said:
Tragic that you NEED to hear it. :-) Muah!
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 197
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 02:46 pm: |
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As far as Per Se, raising their prices: isn't it just that? They raised their menu prices? Because they still have a service charge, no? I don't think one has to do with the other. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 03:41 pm: |
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Have to agree with one thing, we don't know where that 'service charge' money is going.
We hope management is paying their staff appropriately. Any surplus could be given as bonuses for overtime put in or possibly contests on suggestions and kitchen performance.
But in a place like that, when the staff is polishing their dishes and glassware for two hours before the shift starts, I doubt alot goes into selling contests.
Would be nice to have a server from a place like that post a few experiences on the board. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3120
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 11:24 pm: |
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"As far as Per Se, raising their prices: isn't it just that? They raised their menu prices? Because they still have a service charge, no? I don't think one has to do with the other".
Yes, they raised their menu prices (which of course gooses the service charges as well). Sure, maybe they just decided to raise them coincidentally about 2 and a half times what's normal over the past 4 years. More likely though, in order to keep their bottom line constant, they had to raise their prices once they started having to pay servers $60k a year or whatever it is that they pay them. Part of the service charge goes to paying kitchen staff salaries as well, according to Thomas Keller.
One of the big arguments for service charges goes "If they add 20%, menu prices won't go up because they'll just pass the service charge along". I keep saying, "It doesn't work that way". This is a good example of that. It's an especially good example since we don't have that many concrete examples to look at.
So, the Pollyannas can go on thinking that a service charge means no net increase in menu prices. They probably can't be convinced. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 830
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 09:28 am: |
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You seem to think that the service charge will be passed on to the server. The owner is going to pocket the majority of the money. $60,000 a year for a server wages, get real. Servers are a dime a dozen at $2.13 and hour plus tips, just flip them at $10 and they will be happy. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 198
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 11:49 am: |
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"One of the big arguments for service charges goes "If they add 20%, menu prices won't go up because they'll just pass the service charge along". I keep saying, "It doesn't work that way". This is a good example of that. It's an especially good example since we don't have that many concrete examples to look at."
Please explain. If Per Se is contracting these servers at a 60K annual salary, that is one thing. But I don't see why any other server who gets an autograt vs. a tip determined by the customer, would make menu prices increase aside from the usual inflation.
I would imagine there is another reason why Per Se has inflated their prices to that extent in such a short time. They must feel they are worth it and that there are paying customers. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3121
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 01:29 pm: |
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Every expense in the restaurant directly affects the cost of a menu item as well as the bottom line.
The two largest are the cost of obtaining raw material (the food/beverage) and the payroll (you also have other variable costs such as energy costs and the cost of smallwear and consumables such as paper products, cleaning supplies, etc., but they are a smaller factor by a large mark). Due to the relatively fixed nature of things like rent, insurance, they don't factor in too much in the determination of menu prices after those prices are fixed.
Prices go up predominately when the price of goods and payroll rise. In the case of a restaurant that decides to improve the quality of their food product, this can cause an increase in the cost of a menu item, but this is unlikely the case with Per Se, which already used the highest quality products. So their menu prices should increase at roughly the same rate as other restaurants (as I said, the restaurant that I work at has indeed increased their prices around 10% during the same period). Restaurants also strategically raise or lower prices in order to add to the bottom line (part of that 10% that I mention was done for this reason and not just because raw ingredients went up 10%).
Yes, it's possible that they decided that the market would bear a 25% price increase over 4 years and that it had no relationship to actual expenses and costs. After all, it used to be impossible to get a table there. I say "used to be" impossible unless you booked a month prior but now, it seems that tables can be had sometimes at the last minute through the Open Table reservation system (according to some recent sources I've read). But speculation on this is pretty futile because there's no evidence of this.
Much more likely is the idea that the price was something before the service charge and the price began rising after the service charge primarily because of the service charge. It is the one reliable variable that we can look at, especially considering that the service charge also went to paying kitchen people as well.
Payroll balloons and, even though income increases because of the additional revenue (the 20% service charge), now the ballooning of the payroll slice of the pie must be tied to the operating expenses of the restaurant and it acts against the bottom line. Just as food costs are expressed as a ratio of sales and cost of raw materials, payroll is expressed as a ratio of the cost of payroll against the bottom line. Per Se has increased what they pay kitchen people but can't just cut their FOH staff's wages to compensate for it 100% (unless they want a mass exodus). Keller made it clear that his main objective was to equalize pay between kitchen and dining room. Since the servers were making a certain amount including the $4.50 an hour that was required by NY (and probably averaging 20% or more), taking enough from them to bring the kitchen staff up would mean increasing menuporices in order to keep from eroding the bottom line. Per Se was already pretty efficient as restaurants go. They don't cut some servers or kitchen workers when it gets slow because it's all hands on deck the whole night due to the way that dining goes there. They don't want to compromise their food quality because their reputation hinges on using only the finest ingredients. So there aren't very many variable costs to trim in order to keep menu prices lower. I think it's fair to consider these things as causes for raising the menu prices.
It's backed up by the fact that the higher payroll costs on the Left Coast are about 10% higher than the rest of the country, despite tip percentages being very similar. As I said, a percentage point of this difference *might* be due to higher rents, but rents are already a fairly minor factor in a multi-million dollar restaurant. $20,000 extra a year will affect the bottom line, but far less than an extra $500,000 in payroll. And let's consider that we're only talking about raising hourly wages $5 an hour. What happens when we have to raise it $13 an hour as you'd have to do in Tennessee? Would a 20% increase in menu price cover it? Let's look at it from P. F. Chang's numbers (the store that I previously worked at).
We had sales of about $5mil. If we added a 20% service charge in order to just pay the tipped staff, it would now be a $6mil restaurant. Would this cover the added cost of payroll? Doubtful at best. You're not talking about only raising the wages of the service staff by 20% You're talking about exploding the payroll because now you're having to pay them to get to $12 lunch shift/$15 dinner shift hours to keep the wages close (let's not debate whether servers are getting paid too much already - that's a separate issue). I think it's pretty clear that 20% extra income isn't going to cover it. I've run some theoretical numbers in previous posts.
That's why this system works. Servers get paid only on the service that they supply to the guest on a table by table basis. Inefficencies are avoided because servers only have to be paid an hourly wage based on the actual hours that they work, not because of an artificial "base hourly requirement" (let's say your typical 40 hour work week). If you go salary, then, of course the restaurant gets the benefit of extra hours from the server, but they aren't necessarily "productive" hours.
I can't overemphasize how much payroll affects menu prices and the bottom line. Even at 2.13.hr, it's important for restaurants to control the hourly cost of their service staff (partly because it's such a large group). You wouldn't believe how much grief a GM will get from the home office if even one server goes into overtime. It only means that that that one server had to be paid time and half of true minimum wage (around 8 bucks an hour in a less than minimum wage state). And yet, having a couple of servers each pay period have to be paid at this rate can have a measurable effect on the bottom line when look at over the year.
I understand the point that you're trying to make. The thing is, in business, it's almost pointless to ignore basic tenets of business. We can imagine that someone at Per Se simply said, "Hey, they folks will probably pay anything to be served by us - let's keep raising the prices until we get resistance". But we actually can see far more likely reasons for increasing menu costs.
It's hard to explain this in a single post because outsiders don't think about the less tangible things like how scheduling and staffing happens in a typical restaurant and how added costs affect not only the menu price but the bottom line. The restaurant business has some complications that most other businesses don't have. Flexibility in staffing is key, even more so than retail or other businesses that deal with the public. You don't need most/all hands on deck to open a store - you do with restaurants. And that's just one example.
All I can say is that if you are interested in the whys and wherefores, you might want to find some books on restaurant operation so that you can see specifically what the important financial issues for restaurants are. They will give you the basic understaing of how balance sheets shake out and that will give you a basic understanding of the concepts that I am imperfectly trying to relate.
Every business has its own challenges and each business deals with it in their own ways. A business gets in trouble if it tries to veer away from accepted practices. I wouldn't try to redefine the metric of running Target because, as an outsider, I thought that it should be operated under a different set of financial principles, and, if I did, I'd listen to the wisdom of those on the insde because they would have insights that I hadn't considered. I'd probably then understand why they didn't have enough cashiers standing around all of the time just waiting for customers so that no customer ever had to be behind two other customers.
Well, this is already way too long, and it's a bit scattershot. But I hope that it helps someone look at some of the complexities of the business. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 199
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 03:50 pm: |
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Thank you for your post, Teleburst.
I think part of Per Se's issue is the fact that they pay the kitchen staff through the service charge. They pay their kitchen staff very well, but in addition to getting their pay through the menu prices, they also get it from the service charge. Since the service charge is not solely for the service staff, it sounds like it is getting quite mixed up there as to where all the staff's income is coming from. So they are probably paying servers from the menu prices as well. Robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak. Maybe they should have stuck with definitive lines regarding who receives the service charges.
Because I'm sure all hell doesn't break loose everytime any other restaurant does an autograt on a party of 8 or more. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3122
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 04:42 pm: |
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And that's of course the problem with service charges. Restaurants can do with it whatever they want to. There's no guarantee that they won't use it as a "general fund" item. The "service charge" was never designed by Per Se to be a "strict" service charge (at least based on reports at the time). So, there was no confusion there, except maybe by the guest who might think (reasonably) that the service charge is only going to the service staff. Keller considers the kitchen as part of the service staff (as does the occasional internet poster as well) and he was pretty vocal about his intentions with the service charge.
But, from my experience with dealing with restaurant balance sheets, it doesn't have to be an issue with paying kitchen staff. I think Per Se's using the money to pay kitchen staff accounts for some of the difference between the 25% increase and the normal 10% that normal restaurants have increased over the past 4 years (and also the 10% difference between Cali and Tenn.). With Per Se, there could be a chance too that the normal ratio of kitchen to service staff is reversed. Since you only have a few tables and a fairly small FoH staff and a labor intensive kitchen, you might actually have a 1 to 1 ratio of workers instead of the 2 to 1 ratio in a normal restaurant. Who knows? <shrug>
But I think that the comparison of prices between the US and countries that use a service charge and between those three high-dollar states (Cal., Oregon, Wash.) and the rest of the country shows pretty clearly that a payroll increase isn't a wash if a service charge is applied. Even without a service charge in the case of inter-state comparisons, just raising the hourly wage by a few dollars means a decent sized increase in the menu price.
PS, I'm really surprised that the site has been up as long as it has today...knock on wood...here's my head - knock away...
PPS, autograts aren't considered service charges by any restaurant that I'm familiar with, even though they legally could be. They are just treated like normal tips. At least, that's the way it's been in every restaurant that I've ever worked in as well as every restaurant that I'm familiar with from friends in the biz. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 10:03 pm: |
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I think it comes down to each restaurant's own policy as to where the service charge goes. One restaurant, like Per Se, puts it into the general fund and pays their employees accordingly, another might give it to the server and they personally tip out their own service help like most places.
"PS, I'm really surprised that the site has been up as long as it has today...knock on wood...here's my head - knock away..."
No kidding! I expected an "Ooops, this link appears broken" or my ISP suggestion page.
Also, I guess I was using service charge and autograt interchangeably. What is the actual difference between the two? |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1465
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 07:14 am: |
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Service Charge is gratuity charged by the restaurant to cover the servers' tips and the banquet cordinator.
Auto-grat is gratuity that is charged when the table amounts to a certain number, ie party of 5 or more.
In both cases, money will go to the server, exception Per Se, of course.
In our restaurant, Service Charge is 20% with 2% going to the banquet cordinator and 18% going to server. Auto-grat is 18%, with full amount going to server. |
gbowen99
Intermediate Member
Username: gbowen99
Post Number: 513
Registered: 06-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:00 am: |
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Oh this is too good to pass up. An ex waiter from, teleburst's favorite high end restaurant to quote, Per Se. Is commenting on the lack of service being given. Even going so far to suggest a European style flat rate service charge when dinning out. Phoebe also points out how European waiters make better waiters than their tipped American counter parts...
"European Waiter, justifiably proud of his professional training"
Looks like ex-waiters from the top of the heap have noted the poor service in their dinning experiences. Maybe the collective wait staff needs a refresher in proper restaurant service? Customers want to feel special and not buddy buddy with the waiter. So don't...
1. Sit down next to me while taking my order
2. Kneel to get eye to eye with me
3. Ask me how my day was because I know you don't care.
4. Draw smiley faces, hearts, write your name, or even say love on my receipt.
5. Auction my food off at the table. Asking "So who got the..."
Is this a mere observation from last nights dinning at Applebees? Or an educated opinion from months of dinning out at well to do restaurants over the past few months? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3124
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 12:43 pm: |
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"Is this a mere observation from last nights dinning at Applebees? Or an educated opinion from months of dinning out at well to do restaurants over the past few months"?
Probably the former. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 202
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:44 pm: |
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*dining*
I don't like the kneeling gimmick either. It's kind of like an invasion of space. "He's a close talker."
Thanks for the clarification, Voz. I do reserve the right to unintentially mix them up in the future! |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 242
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 01:49 am: |
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Dining at Applebee's. Um really. What next are you gonna complain about service in general because you had a bad experience at Denny's? or Ihop. No wonder you think waiters are a dime a dozen |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1467
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 08:42 am: |
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Kris, You're welcome and yes, feel free to mix the two at your discretion...8p
Agreed Golden and Tele; Probably Applebees, etc.
gbowen99, visit a place that charges a little more than 15.00 for a 3 course meal and you're not going to have servers kneeling down at the table. I'm not a big fan of this tactic, however some restaurant chains do promote this type of 'style'.
For some, especially the 'senior' waiters, it is frowned upon.
Ask me how my day was because I know you don't care.
I guess you don't want a server who is nice. It's just general talk on how the customer is doing. I do care. If the customer says he had a bad day, then I'll do what he/she wants to make it better. If he/she wants to be left alone, I'll do that, too.
Some customers open up after being asked that question and start talking about things that I might have experience or knowledge of; kids, sports, movies, etc.
All the other things you have listed are chain type restaurants. Need more flare, etc.
Don't generalize the waiter because of one restaurant, or a style of restaurants. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3127
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 12:05 am: |
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"Oh this is too good to pass up. An ex waiter from, teleburst's favorite high end restaurant to quote, Per Se. Is commenting on the lack of service being given. Even going so far to suggest a European style flat rate service charge when dinning out. Phoebe also points out how European waiters make better waiters than their tipped American counter parts..."
So said the "day trader", an "occupation" that has a very low success rate.
I know you didn't bother to read my post very well, because, if you had, you would have recognized that I said this:
"She makes some good points about professionalism, but I'm not sure that paying a wage would help that in the average restaurant".
I don't think she made a very good case. Your mileage may vary of course. I agree that service levels in general can be improved (especially my own). But did Per Se's service and food level improve with the institution of a service charge? I doubt it. All it did is possibly inflate the menu price.
Show me where I'm wrong and I might agree with you. I wonder if Phoebe thinks that her service improved with the elimination of the tip. She never really addressed that, did she? Was she automatically better trained and did she perform at a higher level?
I know that you are a seasoned resort traveler (by your own admission). I'm sure that you've sampled Pina Coladas all over the world (or at least the Western Hemisphere). I'm sure that you've sampled European cuisine on cruise ships on multiple oceans. So, I defer to your expertise on such rarified dining experiences. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 718
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 11:37 am: |
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Teleburst said:
But did Per Se's service and food level improve with the institution of a service charge?
Neecey said:
But is that the motivation behind a service charge?
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3128
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 01:33 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
But did Per Se's service and food level improve with the institution of a service charge?
Neecey said:
But is that the motivation behind a service charge"?
That was her justification. Pretty much the whole rationale behind her post. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 719
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 01:48 pm: |
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But her article never mentions that service quality would happen over night. She outlines the recipe that would overall be a good foundation to draw and keep quality servers.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3129
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 02:38 pm: |
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"But her article never mentions that service quality would happen over night. She outlines the recipe that would overall be a good foundation to draw and keep quality servers".
Well, she was there for almost 4 years after the service charge was instituted. Are you saying that you think that the service charge inproved service at Per Se? Personally, I really doubt it. But it's just an opinion as I have no inside info on this.
The "recipe" for a foundation to draw and keep quality servers is twofold: a continuing and comprehensive training program and good management. I don't think it includes a service charge or fixed wages. Her perspective is from a European-styled restaurant and I've outlined the differences between European restaurants and US ones. It's all about scale. When your servers only wait on 4 tables a night (two tables and two turns) and it costs $210 per person before anything else like wine is added before the service charge is even added, a service charge is probably appropriate. Not so much for your typical restaurant, where you have to staff 10 or more servers to handle the crush. The typical restaurant's budget wouldn't be able to handle it, even with a 20% added to the income stream. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 720
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 04:15 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I don't think it includes a service charge or fixed wages.
Neecey said:
Well her points make sense though. Health benefits, packages and so on are motivators for ALL servers to make their job a priority. I think a good part of her point is that as it is now the industry is a magnet for people who are doing it "in the meanitme" or until "something better comes along" as well as people who are stretching themselves thin with school and other self interest endeavours. It doesn't really scream "help wanted, lifetime employees" and because of that service suffers. A good percent of servers don't consider it their career, they aren't striving to work their way up the ladder in that industry it's a temporary means to an ends. People don't usually treat their part time or temporary positions with the same dedication as they would a permanent position that they plan on sticking with for a long time. That's what I really got out of her article.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3130
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 12:51 am: |
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I don't disagree with any of that. The same things could be said for all of the service industry, including retail, sales, customer service, etc.
I just don't think her primary solution to fund all of this professionalism, the service charge, would really help very much. Note that she's not waiting tables anymore either. Despite being at the pinnacle of the restaurant world in terms of waiting tables, she found a way out as well.
Thing is, most people don't know what a grind it is. That's really what keeps most people from considering it a career. Burnout is a BIG factor. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
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After reading that article a 2nd time, it seems she is pushing for an Service Charge on ALL checks, instead of open tipping. Not that I have anything against the idea of getting a certain guarenteed percentage, it doesn't open up the possibility of adding extra, unless the restaurant codes it in the computer.
She made mention of 'suggestive selling' become almost obsolete due to the auto-grat. I disagree. Servers would even more pushy on driving the check average up due to auto-grat becoming higher when the check is higher. I'm going to recommend the 45.00 steak compared to the 25.00 fish, wouldn't you agree?
I don't think service would change based on forced tip vs open tip for the simple reason that a good server will do everything they need to do to make sure there are no complaints or a higher tip. Auto-tip forces the customer to complain if service is poor. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3131
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:30 pm: |
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"After reading that article a 2nd time, it seems she is pushing for an Service Charge on ALL checks, instead of open tipping. Not that I have anything against the idea of getting a certain guarenteed percentage, it doesn't open up the possibility of adding extra, unless the restaurant codes it in the computer".
There should still be a tip line generated by the credit card machine. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:49 pm: |
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There should still be a tip line generated by the credit card machine.
In the restaurant I work at now, there is. Extra line below the service charge when we have private functions. Parties of 5 or more is not inforced in our restaurant.
Another restaurant I used to work will also have the extra line whether is auto-grat (5 or more) or service charge (functions).
I used to work at Chili's and they didn't have that extra line. So when auto-grat was added, that's it. May have changed now. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 832
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 09:24 pm: |
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Why would you need an extra line for tipping when you have autograt/service charge added in already? Oh I see, you would still expect more. The owners will be taking care of you won't they?
teleburst what is a guarented percenage? Oh, you mean guaranteed percentage I see. Why would you think the owners would you that? |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 08:23 am: |
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I'm trying to understand your babble paid-up, but from the looks of it, your two questions are:
Why leave more?
Why would the owners do that for us?
- Why leave more?
Surprising Paid-up, there are people out there who go above and beyond the norm. When they witness and experience excellent service, they tip well. They also know that some restaurants inforce an auto-grat of 18% for parties of 5 or more, or the 20% service charge for a private event. Some customers like to tip on top of that. Surprised? So are we, when it happens. Do we expect it? No.
- Why would the owners do that for us?
Because like any owner of any business, they want an excellent staff. Places that inforce the 18% on parties of 5 or more usually will run a PPA of around 40-80 dollars. The real highend places will incorporate Service Charge on all checks, like Per Se; or not do the auto-grat at all, like the restaurant I work at.
I don't know of a restaurant that does not inforce the 20% Service Charge of private/catering functions. This is the norm.
Welcome to the real world, paid-up!
And yes, I'm responding to you in hopes that something will sink in. Very doubtful, though. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 833
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 09:27 am: |
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Yup forgot the "for". You figured out my "babble". Serving as a career, aim high vos, aim high. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 11:35 am: |
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Serving as a career, aim high vos, aim high.
Aim high for everything I do, Paid-up. And, no; Serving is not my career anymore. I work part-time at the restaurant for the extra money.
Nice try though. Hope you're aiming high, as well, in your career.
BTW: It's too bad you can't comment on the response I had for you. Instead you want to state the 'Serving as a Career' to be a negative. I'd have a more constructive debate with my 8 year old. |
vision
New member
Username: vision
Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 01:44 pm: |
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Isn't a restaurant's service charge simply a way to steal the tips customers would normally give the waiter?
Why are restaurants suggesting that their service charge is something different than an increase in menu prices.
It just seems to me that if most people are led to believe that they can simply pay a service charge, instead of tipping, those workers who would normally receive tips are not going to receive the tips they would normally receive.
Instead of deceptively suggesting that tips may be paid through a service charge, why don't these buisnesses simply raise their menu prices?
The only thing service charges seem to accomplish is, they deceive customers into thinking that they are tipping, when instead, they are simply paying more for the meal.
Shouldn't people still tip when a service charge is in place? Under federal law, tips are defined as that which the employee retains. On the other hand, federal laws define service charges as, property belonging to the employer.
Why are businesses attempting to deceive customers into believing that their service charges don't legally belong to the business?
When a business applies a service charge to it's menu prices, customers don't tip what they would normally tip. Some don't tip at all. Instead of the worker receiving tips, the business gains more revenues.
I just don't understand why restaurants are being allowed to deceive customers into tipping the owner instead of the workers. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 721
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 06:21 pm: |
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vision said:
I just don't understand why restaurants are being allowed to deceive customers into tipping the owner instead of the workers.
neecey said:
Because there's no set structure. Different places can simply follow any practice they want. I personally think these sorta loose ends contribute to my dislike of this system.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1472
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 12:04 pm: |
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Geez, you all must think Servers are idiots. I have never worked in a restaurant, where I can clearly see the 18% to 20% service charge going to the house and not me.
If I had worked in a restaurant where the manager says, "Yes, the 20% is on the bill, but you are only going to get 10%." My hand would flip the bird and I'd be saying adios.
Servers clearly see what is being charged and what tip is being given by the customer. Most servers will track this amount to be sure they get the money that is owed them. |
vision
New member
Username: vision
Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 03:48 pm: |
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Is that why there have been countless lawsuits all across America alleging employers are not passing on the service charges to the servers. Do you really think servers are making sure they get the money that is owed them?
Here is a list of the numerous lawsuits that servers have brought against their employers for not passing on the service charges to the workers who earned them. How many workers do you think have just put up with the abuse?
Why should workers have to either put up with their employer stealing their tips or file a lawsuit where some lawyer will get most of their tips?
It's my opinion that service charges in lieu of tips should be illegal. Why is our government allowing such injustices?
July 27, 2008 ... Workers' lawsuit alleges Richmond County Country Club withheld service charges that should have been tips.
Dec 3, 2008 ... Lawsuit against Kahala Hotel alleges deceptive service charge.
The Hilton Hawaiian Village Resort & Spa in Waikiki is being sued for allegedly violating a state law by failing to pass on food and beverage service charges to tipped employees.
NEW YORK (March 12, 2008) Nine employees of Buddha Bar here filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday alleging the upscale French-Asian restaurant failed to pay minimum and overtime wages, and misappropriated tips, service charges and mandatory customer gratuities.
Wed Sep 10, 2008
Workers Sue Upscale Rooftop Bar and N.Y. Nightlife Mogul for Withheld Tips and Unpaid Wages.
They also allege that the defendants have "misappropriated service charges and/or mandatory gratuities paid by customers" and have "led customers ... to believe that such 'service charges' and/or mandatory gratuities were for the workers.
10/06/2008 Food-service workers file lawsuit against Aramark for "service fees"
Food-service workers have filed a lawsuit against Aramark Corp., alleging the company collected a 20% "service fee" from customers but failed to distribute the extra payment to employees.
Earlier this month, eight banquet servers filed a class action lawsuit against the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Boston, MA. They claim that the hotel violated Massachusetts state wage and hour laws. The employees stated that the Ritz-Carlton collects a 21.5 percent mandatory service charge on all banquet events. However, banquet servers only receive 14.5 percent of this service charge. |
vision
New member
Username: vision
Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 04:47 pm: |
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My question for this board is,
Who would have be tipped if customers weren't tricked into paying a service charge instead of simply tipping.
While many of you may have differing opinions on such a question, the truthful answer is, whom-ever the customer wants to tip.
You see, the reason businesses want to charge customers a service fee, rather than allowing them to tip whom-ever they like is, customers typically only tip one or two people. Customers don't usually bother tipping those who are not serving them directly. Business owners want customers to tip all their employees and it's not because they care about all their employees.
The truth of the matter is, the restaurant industry lobbied our federal government for a law which allows them to pay workers $2.13 if the worker receives tip income. Doesn't this fact prove that restaurant owners don't care about their workers?
Businesses want all their employees receiving tips so that they can pay them all $2.13 an hour. What this means is that for every $5.00 an hour customers are willing to tip an employee, his employer can save $5.00 an hour on payroll expenses. If the employer is able to spread tips out to all his employees he can save $5.00 an hour times the number of employees receiving tips.
Let me illustrate the difference between allowing a waiter to keep all his tips and charging customers a set service fee.
A waiter receives $25 an hour in tips. Because he receives tips, his employer can pay him $2.13 an hour instead of $7.25, the current minimum wage. In this scenario the employer will actually benefit from customers tipping his waiter. The employer will save $5.00 for every hour customers are willing to tip his employee.
Now lets see what could happen when a service charge is implemented. Instead of the waiter receiving $25.00 an hour in tips, the employer collects $25.00 an hour in service charges. The employer is now able to distribute the tips to five employees, instead of just the waiter. Now that five employees are receiving tips, the employer can save $25.00 an hour instead of simply $5.00 an hour.
So while customers might think that they are tipping the waiter, the truth of the matter would be that the entire $25 an hour in tips would simply be benefitting the employer.
While the above scenario would probably be met with a lot of hostility on the part of waiters, the truth of the matter is, this illustrates what employers would like. You see, employers would like to be able to benefit themselves to every penny customers are tipping their employees.
In conclusion, service charges are not about insuring that the employees get what they've worked for. It's about setting up a system whereby the employer can benefit himself to the customer's tip.
Why this country is allowing such fraud is a mystery to me.
While some employers may well pass on the service charges to their employees, the truth of the matter is, they don't have to.
The truth of the matter is, service charges discourage and distract customers from actually tipping whom they want to tip.
It's nothing but a con aimed directly at controlling the billions of dollars customers tip workers in the service industry.
When customer are left to tip whom-ever they wish, employer can't control the money like they can when service charges are implemented. It's all about controlling the tips customer's present. If businesses can control the tips, they can benefit themselves to the tips.
It's a shame that our courts can't understand that when someone is allowed to control another's property, the person controlling the money can benefit himself to it.
Just look at employer mandated tip pooling. Employers, again, are requiring that their workers turn over the control of their tips to their employer. It's really no different than service charges. Instead of the worker to whom the customer has chosen to tip controlling the money, his employer will control the money.
Just look at tip jars. Again, employers are forcing their employees to turn over the control of their tips to their employer. Instead of a worker or group of workers controlling the money, tips jars provide employers with the means to control the tips customers are presenting.
It's all about control.
If you control someone's money, you can steal it for yourself. Why is it so hard for our government and judges to understand this concept?
Maybe they just don't want to understand it. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3132
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 06:38 pm: |
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Why you don't get it is also a mystery to me. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3133
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 08:09 pm: |
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"Here is a list of the numerous lawsuits"
I would call that a handful of the workplace-related suits that are filed each year.
Irregularities happen in all industries:
Mortgage business:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/21/smbusiness/overtime_lawsuits.fsb/index.htm
WalMart:
http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/wage-and-hour-lawsuits-against-wal-mart-settled-221 1/
Look at this laundry list from just one firm:
http://www.orrick.com/practices/employment/wageHour.asp
Two of the 45 listed cases are admittedly "hospitality", but they are about not giving rest and meal periods.
If you look through this laundry list of cases, you'll find that even The GAP isn't exempt, even though they usually win:
All from one firm, Orrick, which defends companies for Wage and Hour and labor law violations:
Nelson Rupp v. Gap, Inc.
Malcolm v. Gap, Inc.
Orrick currently represents Gap in a class action involving alleged uniform violations under the California Labor Code.
Hell, Florida ALONE had 2400 wage and hour lawsuits in 2007 all by itself.
Guess we should change all of their "pay systems" as well.
I'm just sayin' |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3136
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 03, 2009 - 11:04 am: |
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PS, "Vision" - nice to have you back George. Looks like you're back to your old tricks...how's the casino business? I hear Las Vegas has taken quite a bit of a hit. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 07:41 am: |
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Vision, I find it entertaining that by finding lawsuits in the restaurant world, we should all be thinking about changing the way the system works.
Tell me a system that does work without flaw. Just as Teleburst has pointed out, NO system has zero flaws and every system will have a bad apple.
In our restaurant, lawsuit would not happen. We fill out a report that shows how much money I made in tips. Whether it's service charge or tips by the customer, it goes on my report. I then clock out with these numbers, which prints out a report that I get to take home. I then receive a check that shows how much money I made in tips. If it doesn't match what I made for the past two weeks, I go to corporate.
How is this impacting me, management or the customer?
Your beef with these crooked places, which by they way are going to spend thousands of dollars in legal fees defending what they did wrong, is nothing I need to worry about in the restaurant I'm working in. And if that were to happen, we too would reach out to a lawyer for assistance.
Do restaurants want to deal with that? Guess these few you have as examples, do. More power to them and I'm glad the servers stood up against them.
What would be your solution, Vision? Your spouting fraud, unfair practice, etc. What's your solution to the problem that would benefit the customer, the server and the manager? |
vision
New member
Username: vision
Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 01:52 pm: |
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Why should a discussion concerning tips involve figuring out ways to benefit management?
If employer mandated tip pooling were prohibited, customers would benefit by knowing that management wasn't benefiting themselves to their tips. If employer mandated tip pooling were prohibited, employees would benefit because employers would no longer be able to control the tips to the business's interests.
As far as management benefiting, they shouldn't be benefiting from the tips customers give their employees. In fact, most states have laws against employers benefiting themselves to the customer's tip.
When customers tip certain workers, management is able to negotiate lower wages from those workers who customarily receive tips. Isn't that enough incentive for management?
Why should we sit here and discuss ways tips can be handled so that management benefits when customers aren't tipping to benefit management? |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 722
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 11:57 am: |
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Vision said:
Why should we sit here and discuss ways tips can be handled so that management benefits when customers aren't tipping to benefit management?
Neecey said:
I like your position and it's a valid point. Your suggestions seem pretty simple and straight forward. Shouldn't be hard to implement unless of course for those that were manipulating the system for their own benefit and of course we aren't concerned with them.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3138
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 09:08 pm: |
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Should I bust The GAP for wages "benefiting management" if I think that you should be making $20 an hour?
Of course not.
The bottom line is "How much does the server make per hour and at the end of the day (metaphorically speaking, of course)". I don't know of too many restaurants where servers don't make far more than the average service worker, including store clerks.
So I think it's a mountain out of a molehill and someone working in a job that doesn't even have anything to do with waiting tables or tip pools. Now, if George wants to bitch about how his pit bosses steal his money, I'm willing to listen. I'm NOT willing to buy into his faulty logic though.
Of course, I think the only reason that he's stirring after all of these years is the state of casinos and hospitality in Vegas. Hopefully, it's starting to rebound a little, but from what I've heard from my friends who work there, it's still pretty brutal. Maybe they should have their unions get tough or something. The rest of us will just do what we've always done. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 835
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 08:40 pm: |
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You mean keep getting in the way of the customer so they can see how important you are? |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 723
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 09:41 pm: |
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Should I bust The GAP for wages "benefiting management" if I think that you should be making $20 an hour?
Neecey said:
Your need to introduce the gap into every thread is clouding your examples. I'm not understanding the connection with your little comparision but I doubt making an actual point was your intention. I think your main goal is to see how many times you can refer to the Gap. Very comical. :-)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3139
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 09:47 pm: |
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Whatever. Your obligatory slam is noted. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 724
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 09:55 pm: |
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The examples being examined are valid "bad things". Let's not pretend that this very true reality is just a fluke or the price of any business. Regardless of it being true or not it doesn't diminish this negative aspect of the industry. Why can't it be discussed without all this attempt at explaining it away as no biggie? Let's be real and address it, not try and defend it because -gasp- it sheds a bad light on this *beautiful, saintly* industry. Gimme a break.
Teleburst said:
I'm NOT willing to buy into his faulty logic though.
Neecey said:
It's faulty logic because someone refuses to see it as a minor infraction like others like to see it?
Teleburst said:
So I think it's a mountain out of a molehill and someone working in a job that doesn't even have anything to do with waiting tables or tip pools.
Neecey said:
You really don't believe that people have anything valid to say on the customer side do you? I mean is it really so hard to understand why customers may just want to weigh in on how disappointed they are with certain aspects of this system? I mean it's ridiculous to continue berating any poster for having a passionate opinion on such matters. Acting as if no one has any business commenting on anything unless they've been in the business is just really silly.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 725
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Whatever. Your obligatory slam is noted.
Neecey said:
Wow, you went a whole post without mentioning the gap... you're slipping.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 726
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 02:19 pm: |
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Voz said:
Your beef with these crooked places, which by they way are going to spend thousands of dollars in legal fees defending what they did wrong, is nothing I need to worry about in the restaurant I'm working in
Neecey said:
Well it's fortunate that you need not worry because your restaurant isn't engaging in such practices but laws are usually for those that need monitoring. There are minimum wages set because if there wasn't employers would be exploiting left and right so it's understandable that some think it's necessary to get as much protection as possible regarding how money is handled. Lawyering up after the fact doesn't seem like a good gameplan. Deterents and guidelines to avoid such ugliness in the first place seems like a more proactive and productive approach. Lawyers cost money and I'm sure there were more examples out there but the hassle of taking it to court was too much. Path of least reisitance is usually the most traveled path.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3140
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 03:02 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
Whatever. Your obligatory slam is noted.
Neecey said:
Wow, you went a whole post without mentioning the gap... you're slipping".
And you didn't whine, cry and stamp your feet about having to tip. so I guess we're even. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 727
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 07:33 am: |
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Teleburst said:
And you didn't whine, cry and stamp your feet about having to tip. so I guess we're even.
Neecey said:
?
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3141
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:15 am: |
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Good. Another post where you didn't whine about the tipping system. Good - you're making progress. And look - I didn't mention the unmentionable. We're still even. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 728
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 09:28 am: |
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?
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 206
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
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? = The Gap |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 729
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 11:49 am: |
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actually ? represents: "What's your point?"
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 207
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 03:01 pm: |
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Oh, okay. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3142
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 - 03:41 pm: |
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Actually it means question mark - as in This conversation is something I don't understand - I'm in over my head".
Don't worry - I won't ask you to swim in the adult section of the pool. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 730
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 - 01:44 pm: |
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?
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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