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goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 234
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 04:24 am: | 
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So I did a little research and found the tony roma's site in sydney and thought I would try to compare it with my local tony romas prices. Here are the websites:
Sydney:
http://www.tonyromas-mms.com/files/menus/Sydney%20Menu.pdf
LAs Vegas:
http://www.tonyromas.com/uploaded/RCI%20v3%20To%20Go%20309.pdf
note: the current conversion : 1 AUD = .8395 USD
some of my initial observations...
Full Slab of Ribs in Australia .. $29.30(converted)
Las Vegas : $19.99
Difference in price after conversion : 46%
New York Strip :
Sydney : $26.44
Las Vegas : $20.99
Difference : 26%
App Sampler:
Sydney: $17.55
LAs Vegas: $12.99
Difference: 35%
Those seem to be some pretty telling numbers...need to do more work to total out an average meal... see what a meal for two and four would cost and compare the difference.
Gotta tell you though, from my initial observations, it seems like the Australian people have been getting screwed for a while...but that is just a preliminary observation...
Anyone have any other websites like Mcdonalds and other that list menu prices...would like to do a multiple rest comparison. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3018
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 07:53 am: |
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You have to back out the GST (the tax) first - that's 10%.
So now it goes 36%, 16%, 25%. Still considerably higher on average.
And how about Roma's whopping 42% (after backing out the tax) higher half BBQ chicken! US$20.78 vs. $9.98 here in Nashville? |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 235
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 12:04 pm: |
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Pretty intresting stuff though....seems like the aussies have been paying way over 20% for a while....and the funny part is the servers make what, $10-$12 an hour....hmmm. Somethings fishy down under... |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 629
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 08:11 pm: |
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San Jose California:
http://www.tonyromas.com/files/locations_US_detail.asp?state=CA#
Here's the PDF link: http://www.tonyromas.com/uploaded/PRE%20To%20Go%20309.pdf
Ribs Full slab $22.99
NY strip $21.99
App Sampler: $14.99
Sub Total: $59.97
Tax (8.25%): $4.94
15% (before tax): 8.99
Total: $73.91
Sydney amounts from above after conversion:
Ribs Full slab:$29.30
NY strip: 26.44
App sampler: $17.55
Total (prices include GST): $73.29
Whole lot less to calculate.
(Message edited by neecey93 on August 31, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3024
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 09:00 pm: |
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In Miami it would be:
NY Strip 20.99
App Sampler (not listed, so I'll use 13.99 and split the difference)
Ribs Full Sampler 19.49
Sub total 54.47
15% pretax total 8.17
6.50% Sales tax - 3.54
Total - 66.18
10% higher with tip and tax in states than in wage-included Australia.
This points out that the "whole lot less to calculate" calculus is pretty much irrelevant in a country that has variable tax rates and different food prices in different parts of the country. It's *always* going to be "more difficult to calculate" in the states, even if we went to a wage system.
BTW, Miami's 1/2 BBQ chicken is still a lot cheaper than in Sydney ($11.49). Even if you tack on tax and 15% pretax tip, it's still 33% higher over there. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 631
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 09:11 pm: |
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My point is that depending on what part of the states you are in it would be the close to the same amount being spend as in let's say Sydney so there really doesn't seem to be any negative surrounding the raised prices in Australia.
The easier to calculate part was just a side comment but my main point was to show that the prices were pretty much equal. One without tipping and one with tipping.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3026
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 09:41 pm: |
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"My point is that depending on what part of the states you are in it would be the close to the same amount being spend as in let's say Sydney so there really doesn't seem to be any negative surrounding the raised prices in Australia".
I'd make the opposite point - that, depending on what part of the States you are in, the difference can be easily 10% higher even with tip and tax figured in.
"The easier to calculate part was just a side comment but my main point was to show that the prices were pretty much equal".
For those three items in that one location. And not a typical meal at all. Better not order the half chicken either! |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 632
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 10:19 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I'd make the opposite point - that, depending on what part of the States you are in, the difference can be easily 10% higher even with tip and tax figured in.
Neecey said:
But it would mainly be the fault of the 10% GST for the difference not some overpricing of the product.
Teleburst said:
For those three items in that one location. And not a typical meal at all. Better not order the half chicken either!
Neecey said:
Well there was another location in Cali with the same prices for the three but point being, the prices rise/fall depending on where you are. The original thought implied that there was some ridiculous overpricing going on but in reality they pretty much compare with some of our locations here in the states.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3029
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 10:42 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
I'd make the opposite point - that, depending on what part of the States you are in, the difference can be easily 10% higher even with tip and tax figured in.
Neecey said:
But it would mainly be the fault of the 10% GST for the difference not some overpricing of the product".
No, I was including the included GST.
"Neecey said:
Well there was another location in Cali with the same prices for the three but point being, the prices rise/fall depending on where you are. The original thought implied that there was some ridiculous overpricing going on but in reality they pretty much compare with some of our locations here in the states".
Actually, no. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 636
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 31, 2009 - 11:00 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Actually, no.
Neecey said:
Cute argument. So why doesn't the San Jose and Sydney example show that the prices aren't really all that ridiculously different? I mean the original post was to show the astronomical increase % wise in prices including everything. My example showed they were equal in at least one state in the US. As for other states there would be a difference but NOT astronomical like some would like to suggest. It's right there in black and white. But that's another debate that can't possible be true because it doesn't agree with what the industry has convinced itself is the reality.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 236
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 02:03 am: |
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Actually...neecy is correct....the cost of living in vegas is different than the cost of living in Sydney. A more comparable environment should be used as the test cities.
My solution is to find cities that are comparable in cast of living to Sydney, and for that I found UBS cost of living comparison which they rank every year(thats what I love about this site...I learn so much)
Link: http://www.citymayors.com/economics/expensive_cities2.html
Turns out that Miami is the closest city to sydney in the ranking so that will be a good comparison. (teleburst was right...bet your gonna love hearing that... )
Unfortunately Chicago doesn't have a Tony Romas... That another close city and it would be better to have two test subjects.
Sound good for a starting point??? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3037
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 08:23 am: |
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"As for other states there would be a difference but NOT astronomical like some would like to suggest".
It's right in line with figures that I've hypothosized - I said menu prices would probably have to rise at least 25% over what they are now and would likely go higher and people said, "No, they would only have to go up by what we are tipping now because the cost would be passed through the service charge". I tried to explain why this wasn't true, but that's always ignored by the naysayers.
If the price of the menu in Miami is 10% over the price of Sydney including all taxes and tips, then we're looking at a MINIMUM of 25% more under a wage system.
Since most servers seem to average between 16% - 19% post tax (no, I don't think that there are any published info on this, so I'm sure you won't believe my pitiful lack of experience on this), using 15% pretax only shows close to the "best case scenario" (as you well know, most autograts and service charges are at least 17%-18% pretax) of a 25% increase.
Of course, this is assuming that restaurants will attempt pay equity - try to keep their servers income in line with what they're making now (which of course is one of the lurking agendas of naysayers that only peeks out every once in a while - the idea that servers are "overpaid", despite the willingness of the marketplace to support those wages).
Plus, now you're also going to have to pay all of those server assistants and food runners more money as well, people who have been paid mostly out of the tips of the server. So, that average of 17 - 18% is not only supporting one person, it's supporting as many as three people - the bartender, the server assistant and the server assistant, and in some restaurants, it's now supplementing the host/ess as well.
Just thought I'd point that out as well.
BTW, I'm going to go to the San Jose site and pick out an appetizer, a salad, a main course and a dessert and see what we actually come up with. I will stay away from chicken, but I'll do it without first looking at the Sydney menu. In other words, I won't cherry-pick what seems to be the items with the most difference. I'll try to make it as average a meal as I can.
I'll report back with the results later. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3038
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:07 am: |
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California:
Onion Loaf 7.69
Dinner Salad 6.49
Fried Shrimp 16.99
Apple Crisp ala mode 4.99
Subtotal 36.16
Tip 5.42
Tax 3.07
Total 44.65
Sydney
Onion Loaf 11.50 9.15
Salad 8.50 10.11
Shrimp 31.95 20.23
Crisp 10.90 5.94
Subtotal 45.43
Tax 4.54
Total 49.97
Australia is 8.9% higher.
A couple of caveats. when I randomly chose, I first chose spinach artichoke dip. I didn't see that on the Sydney menu. I also chose the shrimp scampi pasta, when they didn't have either. So I had to switch those. Plus, I'm not sure if the "apple crumble" is even ala mode in Sydney as it is in California.
Pretty much in line with that ~10% difference that I mentioned. And that figure is about the difference between the average meal in a state like California that has to pay over minimum wage and a state like Tennessee that doesn't.
And what do you know? When you compare the price of a cheesy burger in San Jose with the price of the same burger in Miami, what do you find? 7.99 in Miami and 9.79 in San Jose. Wow - that's a 20% difference!
But keep believing that menu prices would stay the same as they are now (with the tip rolled in of course). |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 641
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:56 am: |
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Teleburst said:
Australia is 8.9% higher.
Neecey said:
Not astronomically higher.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 642
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 10:00 am: |
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Teleburst said:
In other words, I won't cherry-pick what seems to be the items with the most difference.
Neecey said:
I just used the same examples as the first thread which was an app and 2 main courses which would be what a couple may in fact order.
(Message edited by neecey93 on September 01, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3039
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 10:46 am: |
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"I just used the same examples as the first thread which was an app and 2 main courses which would be what a couple may in fact order".
I understand that. And I also understand that they were the examples given in the first place.
What you neglected to point out was the difference between the prices in Vegas and San Jose.
In Vegas, your hypothetical couples' meal would cost a subtotal of 53.97. In San Jose, it would cost a subtotal of 59.97. That's a difference of...wait for it...8.9% higher. This despite being only right across the California border. Could this be accounted for by the fact that California has to pay $8 an hour to its servers, server assistants, bartenders, etc.?
This ~9% difference crops up almost everytime you compare menus from the three West coast states and every other state in the union. Coincidence? I think not.
And, it's interesting that it's almost the exact same percentage as the difference between Australia and Miami, a state that pays for less than minimum wage.
No, it's not surprising that you found a restaurant that was close to Australia, since it's already almost exactly that much higher than the rest of the country. Yes, there are 3 states that pay closer to the "wage" that you want. But they still aren't that close really at $8 an hour and they're *still* 9% higher than the rest of the country. They don't even pay the sort of wage that Australia.
And yes, I know that it doesn't matter to you because you're willing to pay extra for your principle. But I suspect that you're in the extreme minority on that one. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 647
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 11:07 am: |
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Teleburst said:
What you neglected to point out was the difference between the prices in Vegas and San Jose.
Neecey said:
The Vegas example was already up there.
Teleburst said:
And yes, I know that it doesn't matter to you because you're willing to pay extra for your principle. But I suspect that you're in the extreme minority on that one.
Neecey said:
Maybe, maybe not. You suspect but you don't really know.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3044
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 11:20 am: |
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"Teleburst said:
What you neglected to point out was the difference between the prices in Vegas and San Jose.
Neecey said:
The Vegas example was already up there".
But the comparison wasn't. I note that you're mute on the issue though. I suspect that you're having trouble finding fault in my analysis, despite the fact that it's me who's making it. It must be absolutely bulletproof <g>.
"Teleburst said:
And yes, I know that it doesn't matter to you because you're willing to pay extra for your principle. But I suspect that you're in the extreme minority on that one.
Neecey said:
Maybe, maybe not. You suspect but you don't really know".
No, it's just backed up by those nasty polls when the question is asked about replacing tipping with higher prices.
I suspect that deep down you really know the answer to the question of consumers' preferences about higher prices though vs wages though. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 650
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 11:41 am: |
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Teleburst said:
But the comparison wasn't. I note that you're mute on the issue though. I suspect that you're having trouble finding fault in my analysis, despite the fact that it's me who's making it. It must be absolutely bulletproof
Neecey said:
Hey my example was that the prices were equal in San Jose that is was in Sydney I also touched on the fact that whatever increase there is isn't astronomical. I believe I made the point in other threads that the increase in menu prices wouldn't be astronomical.
Teleburst said:
No, it's just backed up by those nasty polls when the question is asked about replacing tipping with higher prices.
Neecey said:
Then why did you say "suspect"? Could it be that even YOU know that it isn't an ABSOLUTE?
Teleburst said:
I suspect that deep down you really know the answer to the question of consumers' preferences about higher prices though vs wages though.
Neecey said:
There is no way to really know because there isn't any real data for the other side such as a wage being implemented across the US and seeing how the adjustment can be made. As it is now there are just hypotheticals.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:05 pm: |
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As it is now there are just hypotheticals.
Since that is the case, it's really simple math to making a profit for a restaurant.
Cost to run the place must equal to or be less than the amount of money made from selling product/services.
Since Labor is a big cost, adding to that cost will result in higher prices, most likely.
The interesting thing to think about is the transition process. What would a restaurant do if they suddenly had to pay 7.00+ to their waitstaff across the nation?
We could guess that prices would be increased quickly and the news would of course state these things on TV and the newspaper. If I saw a jump in prices, I would question why.
Most people caught up on the news would probably go to asking the server if tips are required now that we make more per hour.
Business levels would drop due to the illusion of having to pay more for a steak, salad or burger; without thinking that they paid the same due to the tip.
Non-tippers would probably be reduced, because now they have no control on the amount they spend. *this would be a good thing in my book*
Food quality would probably go down a bit due to managers and chef's attempting to make up for the labor without increasing the menu prices too much.
Waitstaff would be hit hard. Restaurants would have to guarentee a set number of hours or rate of pay comparable to what they were making. Otherwise, turn over will result.
Job market will be swamped with a number of servers attempting to work in other fields.
Servers will spend less on goods and services since the market has demanded them to make less. This will result in a slight economy crisis.
With the resulting higher prices for dining out and the lower service levels from understaffing and turn over rates, a lot of restaurants will be forced to close their doors from lack of business and assistance.
Restaurants that will stay in business would be the corporate chains and places that serve breakfast, lunch and dinner. It would be very similar to the life when Highways were booming and diners were sprouting across the US.
Looks kind of bleak to me. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3046
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 07:35 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
But the comparison wasn't. I note that you're mute on the issue though. I suspect that you're having trouble finding fault in my analysis, despite the fact that it's me who's making it. It must be absolutely bulletproof
Neecey said:
Hey my example was that the prices were equal in San Jose that is was in Sydney I also touched on the fact that whatever increase there is isn't astronomical. I believe I made the point in other threads that the increase in menu prices wouldn't be astronomical.
Well, prices going up 25% (or even more) seems fairly astronomical to the normal person. I'll bet you'd find such an increase in your rent very significant, if not "astronomical".
"Teleburst said:
No, it's just backed up by those nasty polls when the question is asked about replacing tipping with higher prices.
Neecey said:
Then why did you say "suspect"? Could it be that even YOU know that it isn't an ABSOLUTE"?
Of course. There are no absolutes in this world except death and taxes. there are only probabilities. Are you saying that your view is absolute? Of course not. Then why hold me to a different standard?
"Teleburst said:
I suspect that deep down you really know the answer to the question of consumers' preferences about higher prices though vs wages though.
Neecey said:
There is no way to really know because there isn't any real data for the other side such as a wage being implemented across the US and seeing how the adjustment can be made. As it is now there are just hypotheticals".
I guess there's no reason to even bother discussing it then. You're stuck in the system. Tough for you. |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 239
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 08:20 pm: |
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Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria...
Sorry voz...couldnt resist.... |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 655
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:07 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Well, prices going up 25% (or even more) seems fairly astronomical to the normal person.
Neecey said:
But it really wouldn't be 25%. It would be more like 5%-8%-10% because with tipping we are paying from 15%-25%
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3050
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:38 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
Well, prices going up 25% (or even more) seems fairly astronomical to the normal person.
Neecey said:
But it really wouldn't be 25%. It would be more like 5%-8%-10% because with tipping we are paying from 15%-25%"
God, are you dense sometimes, surprisingly so. *Menu prices* would have to go up that much if you eliminated tipping and went to a wage. That's you're whole point, right - to get a simple price printed on the menu? That price would have to rise ~25% and more. One month, the price of a steak is $40, the next, it's over $50. That's why I usually say "menu prices" when I talk about price increases. I would think that you'd allow me to use a little shorthand after "pummeling" you with that phrase over the years. Surely you can't claim that I was saying that prices would rise that much *on top of tips*.
Unfortunately, you're still stuck with the pesky tax thing when it comes to menu price simplication, but, who knows? Maybe the Republicans can get a VAT rammed through the Congress.
Hey, since you're using 10% now, I guess the price spread is even greater!
(Message edited by teleburst on September 01, 2009) |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 240
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 10:55 pm: |
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um neecy...
just so im sure on interpetting what you are saying... you say that a food increase of 25% is ok so you dont have to tip 15-20%. Im not putting words in your mouth ...im just asking because thats what it seems like you are saying... |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3051
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 08:22 am: |
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I think she'd say the cost is worth the benefit. And that's a fair enough individual opinion. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 658
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 01:28 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
God, are you dense sometimes, surprisingly so. *Menu prices* would have to go up that much if you eliminated tipping and went to a wage
Neecey said:
EXACTLY brainiac! But if customers are ALREADY use to the culture being 15-25% on top of their meal now then if prices rise 25% to cover wages then those who are already at the 25% mark aren't feeling any change and those that stick between 15-18-20% are only dealing with a 5-7-10% increasing which ISN'T astronomical.
Teleburst said:
you're still stuck with the pesky tax thing
Neecey said:
I'm not stuck on the tax thing. It actually makes it more complicated to debate. I used the tax to prove that we have places here that deal with the high prices regardless of what causes those prices. It's just an adaptable thing. Costs rise, prices go up. It's just not a really traumatic idea. Annoying yes, never happened before No.
(Message edited by neecey93 on September 02, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 659
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 01:54 pm: |
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Goldenfoxx said:
just so im sure on interpetting what you are saying... you say that a food increase of 25% is ok so you dont have to tip 15-20%. Im not putting words in your mouth ...im just asking because thats what it seems like you are saying...
Neecey said:
Yeah, I know it sounds weird but I think that it would put a little more structure in the industry. As it is now there are a lot of variables that make me as a customer really wonder where my tip truly goes and also leaves a door open for customers to make incorrect assumptions about an employee and then punish. With a wage, the restaurant offers what it offers and the employee can either take it or leave it without my immediate, personal input.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3052
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 02:16 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
you're still stuck with the pesky tax thing
Neecey said:
I'm not stuck on the tax thing".
I didn't say "stuck on", I said "stuck with". Big difference.
BTW, I think "astronomical" is *your* word, not mine. I usually use the word "significant". Most people find an immediate 10% rise in a price "significant". If your rent went up $150 from $1500 to $1650, I think you'd find it significant. People howl when gas goes up .25 overnight. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 660
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 05:22 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
BTW, I think "astronomical" is *your* word, not mine.
Neecey said:
Yes, I use it to explain my reasoning. A lot of the emphasis in general is how HIGH the prices would be and how seriously that would impact customers. I counter that position by pointing out that the higher prices aren't that extreme and adaptable in my opinion.
Teleburst said:
If your rent went up $150 from $1500 to $1650, I think you'd find it significant.
Neecey said:
Actually my rent did jump $125 last year when I switched apartments. I dealt with it.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3057
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 12:06 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
If your rent went up $150 from $1500 to $1650, I think you'd find it significant.
Neecey said:
Actually my rent did jump $125 last year when I switched apartments. I dealt with it".
And if my burger jumps from $3 to $8 because I go from McDonald's to TGI Friday's, I don't see it in the same light as if my burger at TGI Friday's goes up to $13.
You dealt with it because you wanted (or needed) to move. Sure, you'd "deal with it" one way or another if your rent jumped that much on your current apartment (you'd either stay if you loved your place, or move if it bothered you). And, because you say "I dealt with it" indicates that you thought that it was "significant".
Nobody is saying that people wouldn't "deal with" a change. They wouldn't have any choice.
"Yes, I use it to explain my reasoning. A lot of the emphasis in general is how HIGH the prices would be and how seriously that would impact customers. I counter that position by pointing out that the higher prices aren't that extreme and adaptable in my opinion".
How? By misstating what people have said? By countering something like "I think that menu prices would have to rise by between 25 - 35% to accomodate a true wage structure" to "No, it prices won't jump astronomically because it would only be as little as 5% over tipping"? That's a bit fraudulent, if you ask me. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 663
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 01:10 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
And if my burger jumps from $3 to $8 because I go from McDonald's to TGI Friday's, I don't see it in the same light as if my burger at TGI Friday's goes up to $13.
Neecey said:
Well you brought up the rent example. Guess is wasn't the right comparision.
Teleburst said:
And, because you say "I dealt with it" indicates that you thought that it was "significant".
Neecey said:
Yeah the same way I think having a set wage is significant.
Teleburst said:
How? By misstating what people have said?
Neecey said:
Who have I mistated? It's been a common debate on this forum, in numerous threads that prices would rise. This rise has been presented as something really extreme. That's the point I'm referring to when I debate my side. It's been my position and opinion that the rise wouldn't be an amount that would be hard to adjust to.
Teleburst said:
"No, it prices won't jump astronomically because it would only be as little as 5% over tipping"?
Neecey said:
Where are these quotes coming from? Who said that?
Teleburst said:
That's a bit fraudulent, if you ask me.
Neeceys said:
What I find fraudulent is how you try and debate something by claiming someone else is saying something they aren't.
(Message edited by neecey93 on September 03, 2009)
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3059
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 03, 2009 - 01:26 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
And if my burger jumps from $3 to $8 because I go from McDonald's to TGI Friday's, I don't see it in the same light as if my burger at TGI Friday's goes up to $13.
Neecey said:
Well you brought up the rent example. Guess is wasn't the right comparision".
Yes, your comparison missed the mark a little bit. You moved. So it was different than a menu price going up.
"Neeceys said:
What I find fraudulent is how you try and debate something by claiming someone else is saying something they aren't".
You mean like you have? Like calling something astronomical when nobody else has characterized it as such?
Is *that* what you mean? |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 01:45 am: |
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Hi everyone - I came across this site in my research for an upcoming trip to the US. I made a mess of tipping last time I was there, so felt the need to improve and not offend anyone too much.
Having lived in several countries in Europe, Asia and Australia where tipping is not normal, I felt I needed to find out how things work properly for this trip.
The very fact that a message board exists suggests that tipping in the US is not an exact science.
Getting back to the topic of this thread, it's very difficult to compare restaurant prices across nations and draw any meaningful conclusions. For example, prices in Australia vary greatly and are determined by myriad things. The particular restaurant cited is in Sussex St. Sydney which is one of the most expensive areas in Australia's most expensive city. Indirect taxes such as council rates and liquor licencing charges are not comparable across different locales.
Also, the prices quoted are quite expensive by Australian standards. I've personally never heard of this restaurant, but perhaps they've successfully marketed themselves as a more premium brand in Australia than in the US. Perhaps they seek to tap the market for home-sick Americans who will pay a premium for a taste of home (the restaurant is located near a lot of international hotels).
Personally, I prefer restaurants in countries where tipping is not expected. Too often in US restaurants it felt like the staff were giving a "performance". Their interest and enthusiasm often didn't appear sincere or natural. Also, it felt very much like a master / servant relationship, with a lot of fussing and checking every few minutes if we needed anything. This appears to be driven by their desire for a good tip. I find it a bit sad that a grown adult has to be so ingratiating in order to earn a living. I prefer a more "equal" relationship with waiting staff and the occasional inquiry as to our needs is generally enough for me. But that's just my preference. Some of my colleagues really enjoy the theatrics of a US restaurant.
I'll go through the other threads to see if I can work out the rules for tipping in the US.
Cheers................. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 08:07 am: |
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Cam_lon:
Personally, I prefer restaurants in countries where tipping is not expected. Too often in US restaurants it felt like the staff were giving a "performance". Their interest and enthusiasm often didn't appear sincere or natural. Also, it felt very much like a master / servant relationship, with a lot of fussing and checking every few minutes if we needed anything. This appears to be driven by their desire for a good tip. I find it a bit sad that a grown adult has to be so ingratiating in order to earn a living. I prefer a more "equal" relationship with waiting staff and the occasional inquiry as to our needs is generally enough for me. But that's just my preference. Some of my colleagues really enjoy the theatrics of a US restaurant.
You actually make some good points and I understand your concerns. One thing about the US, and I think most will agree is the number of restaurants are astronomical. (theres that word again...;) )
Anyhoo, with that the service level and the type of service you receive will be vastly different, which adds more confusion to the equation.
Also realize that the price of the food in the US is lower compared to other countries is lower due to the fact that your not paying for the service until AFTER you eat. Of which, your tip will bring the total amount to approximatly to the total in restaurants across the globe. Give or take a few bucks.
So why do these adults dressed in uniforms wait tables and basically 'serve' guests who come in to eat?
The market was built that way. Just as bowing in Japan, it's a tradition that has stood time in our country.
I prefer a more "equal" relationship with waiting staff and the occasional inquiry as to our needs is generally enough for me. But that's just my preference.
And that would be a perfect 15-18% tip for the server on the sub-total (before tax) when you dine out.
If the service is over the top or intrusive or lacking, then feel free to save a few bucks and leave 10%. If the service was truely horrible, you can leave nothing, but judging that you have an accent, most servers will think you stiffed them due to being a foreigner. Unless you bring it to the manager's attention, it's a sad result of being stiffed.
The good servers who did a bad job will know why they received a bad tip, but this would be unknown by the customer unless they are a regular.
To keep things simple; if you enjoy your meal and the service was what you desired; then 15% is a good figure to stay with. Don't worry about going up or down unless you're extremely happy with something the server did for you, or upset at the lack of service. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3064
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 09:00 am: |
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"Getting back to the topic of this thread, it's very difficult to compare restaurant prices across nations and draw any meaningful conclusions. For example, prices in Australia vary greatly and are determined by myriad things. The particular restaurant cited is in Sussex St. Sydney which is one of the most expensive areas in Australia's most expensive city. Indirect taxes such as council rates and liquor licencing charges are not comparable across different locales".
The reason that this restaurant was used is that it can be directly compared to a US restaurant. Same food, same concept, same furnishings, same staffing requirements, etc. There aren't any internal variables other than the pay difference (as close as one can come that is).
That restaurant is also also located in the same "high priced" locales in the US by virtue of its prices. It only goes into wealthy areas of cities and generally it only goes into cities where the demographics support it. And it also works in the tipping argument favor that I've shown that even in the US, prices are about 9% higher in states that pay $8+ an hour vs those that pay 2.13/hr (with tipping still in place). People claim that all you have to do is add a service charge and the menu prices would only have to rise by that much. They fail to take into account how costs work in a restaurant.
"Also, the prices quoted are quite expensive by Australian standards".
They are quite expensive by American standards as well. They are an upscale restaurant. But you find the same thing with Chili's and Applebees and other more modest American transplants as well. Unfortunately we can't compare diner food (what we might call meat and three) or other types of restaurants because there are too many variables. You can't compare the price of burgers in cafes for instance because of the possible differences in the burgers themselves. That's why I always choose restaurants that are in the same chain for direct purposes.
"Personally, I prefer restaurants in countries where tipping is not expected".
That's understandable. That's what you are used to. It was hard for me to adapt to the tipping system (i.e. basically the lack of it) when I moved to Germany. But I adapted.
I can understand being baffled by the different places where tips are common. We even get it wrong sometimes. But the restaurant tipping system is, despite some of the naysayers here who like to argue simply to argue, quite easy once you've done it once or twice.
"Too often in US restaurants it felt like the staff were giving a "performance".
Sometimes we feel the same thing about guests, so I guess we're equal. <g>
"Their interest and enthusiasm often didn't appear sincere or natural. Also, it felt very much like a master / servant relationship, with a lot of fussing and checking every few minutes if we needed anything".
Well, that's because we Americans can be quite needy when we eat out. We start drumming fingers if we aren't greeted within 2 minutes of the time that we're seated. We need our lemons in our water and our side dishes of ranch dressing. If we don't have our first drink within 5 minutes of walking in the door, oh my - heads are going to roll. And, we can be quite fussy about our food. So, service has evolved to accomodate that. Plus, there's the dreaded "secret shopper" that chain restaurant servers have to deal with. If a secret shopper sits in my station, I'm going to be graded on a 100 point scale. There are about 25 things that they are required to grade me on. did I solicit bottled water AND do it by brand name? Did I check back each course within two minutes to ask how everything was? What was my demeanor - was I friendly - please describe". did I keep the table properly crumbed and clear of debris? and the list goes on and on, tailored to the particular restaurant, which chooses the service points that they have established.
So, I feel your pain.
The best servers are able to hit all of those service points without you being aware of most of it. The best servers keep a watchful eye on you without having to interrupt you every 3 minutes asking if "everything is OK". They are the ones that really deserve more than the average 15%.
"I find it a bit sad that a grown adult has to be so ingratiating in order to earn a living".
Well, we all do what we must. Believe it or not, most of the time, the server isn't faking it all that much. I'd go mad if I weren't interested in the thousands of people that I have to wait on each year. I'd also go mad if I had to fake it. do I have to fake it sometimes? Sure. There are guests who are obnoxious, rude, and overbearing that I have to be nice to. There are days when I don't "feel nice" (don't we *all* have that occasionally). But in general, we're trying to relate to the guest and get on their good side because, not only does it pay off financially, it helps deliver a satisfactory dining experience and we want to do a good job. There's a fine line between gracious and smarmy sometimes.
But there have also been restaurants that were known for surly waiters. The original Palm Steakhouse in NYC had such a reputation. And there is a restaurant somewhere (Chicago maybe) where that's their schtick - they are deliberately rude.
"I'll go through the other threads to see if I can work out the rules for tipping in the US".
I guess you'll have to print out a chart <chuckle>. I only speak for restaurant servers.
For restaurants though, it's pretty clearcut - 15% for average service. More if you liked their service (for instance, maybe they were able to read that you weren't thrilled with an exuberant server and they toned it down and gave you the dining experience that made you feel at home instead of as an audience member at a vaudeville show as well as made your dinner run like invisible clockwork). Less if they annoyed the hell out of you by constantly being in your face with joy and happiness, screwed up your order, were terribly slow even by Australian standards, well, you know what makes a dining experience less than average.
PS, would you tell your fellow countrymen that 3% might work in your own country as a token tip, but it is a horrible tip here? You guys are notorious for undertipping and I've never seen a nationality (even the French of the Germans) who seemed to use 3% as a standard (except for perhaps the Mumbai-type Indians, even ones who live here full-time). A grateful army of American servers thanks you in advance and I'm grateful to those australians who do tip properly (they're in the minority though). |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 666
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 11:14 am: |
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Teleburst said:
Like calling something astronomical when nobody else has characterized it as such?
Neecey said:
Okay so I guess that means the new higher prices (if a set wage were in place) isn't a big deal then. They would just be very comfortable prices the the average customer wouldn't be too concerned with. Great. Thanks for proving my point then.
cam_lon said:
I find it a bit sad that a grown adult has to be so ingratiating in order to earn a living.
Neecey said:
I agree.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3066
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 11:25 am: |
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"Teleburst said:
Like calling something astronomical when nobody else has characterized it as such?
Neecey said:
Okay so I guess that means the new higher prices (if a set wage were in place) isn't a big deal then. They would just be very comfortable prices the the average customer wouldn't be too concerned with. Great. Thanks for proving my point then".
Thanks for pretending that astronomical is the only kind of price increase that would bother people. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3067
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 11:38 am: |
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http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126035
Don't piss off the bikers! |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 11:58 am: |
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cam_lon said:
I find it a bit sad that a grown adult has to be so ingratiating in order to earn a living.
Neecey said:
I agree.
Voz:
Why? What other way are you going to get your food in a sit down restaurant? Whether I'm paid tips or hourly, would it make a difference on how you feel about me trying to please you with a song and dance? You can look at it from either side.
Voz Doe the waiter works for tips: Performs song and dance to take care of guest to earn a tip.
Voz Doe the waiter works hourly: Performs song and dance to take care of the guest to keep from getting a complaint.
What the difference?
Oh, that's right. You don't feel like being responsible for the tip. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 820
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 12:05 pm: |
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cam, you don't have to tip anyone you don't want to. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 668
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 02:09 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Thanks for pretending that astronomical is the only kind of price increase that would bother people.
Neecey said:
Who said only?
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3069
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 02:11 pm: |
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You did when you claimed that it was "no big deal" unless a price increase was "astronomical". |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 670
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 04:28 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
You did when you claimed that it was "no big deal" unless a price increase was "astronomical".
Neecey said:
Who said it wasn't a big deal? Are you quoting me from somewhere because I looked back on my posts and no where do I see the quote:
it's no big deal unless a price increase was astronomical.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 821
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 07:34 pm: |
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Amen! |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3073
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 09:29 pm: |
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"Neecey said:
Who said it wasn't a big deal"?
You did:
"Okay so I guess that means the new higher prices (if a set wage were in place) isn't a big deal then".
"Wasn't a big deal" is just the past tense of what you wrote. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 673
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 04, 2009 - 11:16 pm: |
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Well your stating that prices would rise and I'm stating that it wouldn't be high enough to cause an uproar. If your position is that a 5-10% difference will bother people that hey that's your right to believe and that's a new angle. I alway read from these threads two things, that the prices would rise to an extreme and that people wouldn't like the power to judge implying that most wouldn't like prices *skyrocketing*.
I'm not pretending that astronomical prices are the only thing that would bother some I'm just saying that I don't think it wouldn't be a rough adjustment.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3074
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 02:53 pm: |
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I find it funny that you can't even bring yourself to go "Ooops, I screwed up".
"If your position is that a 5-10% difference will bother people that hey that's your right to believe and that's a new angle. I alway read from these threads two things, that the prices would rise to an extreme and that people wouldn't like the power to judge implying that most wouldn't like prices *skyrocketing*".
First of all, now it's just 5%-10%? I guess you needed to drop the 15% that you previously acknowledged to make your argument stronger.
And *yet*, let's not forget that the 9% difference that seems to be almost a "constant" between tip credit and non-tip credit states is only the beginning of a price increase. that's only the difference between $2.13/hr and $8/hr.
Actually, for restaurants in 2.13 states to pay close to what servers are earning now, they would have to pay anywhere from 7x (probably the average) to 20x (for high end restaurants) what they're paying their servers now. That's even more than the 4x difference that the 9% now represents. So this would add even more than the 25% increase in menu prices that would be represented in the case of including the wage into the menu price.
And, just in case you think that most people consider the tip in their perception ofmenu prices, Michael Lynn begs to differ:
"Why do restaurants rely on tips instead of a flat wage to compensate waiters and waitresses? Why not build the cost of service into menu prices? Because restaurant customers don't appear to take tips into account when they judge how expensive a restaurant is, finds a new study from the Cornell Center for Hospitality Research.
Cornell researchers Shuo Wang, a doctoral candidate, and Michael Lynn, both of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, used an Internet-based simulation that allowed 318 participants to make food selections from four hypothetical restaurants, each of which used tipping, service charges or menu prices that included service charges. After the participants saw the final bill, if it included a service charge or inclusive pricing, they rated the restaurant as more expensive than if they had added a tip".
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Feb07/RN.tipping.bills.sl.html
No, not only are *menu prices* likely to rise over 30% if we went to a wage system, the *actual* price will likely rise at least 10% over what we're paying now, including tipping. |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 676
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 06:41 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I find it funny that you can't even bring yourself to go "Ooops, I screwed up".
Neecey said:
Because I didn't. My position was that the price rise wouldn't be astronomical. Any other price increase should be something that could be adjusted to. Why else would some assume that higher prices is a good enough argument to leave it the way it is if they didn't think customers couldn't adjust to it? Why would anyone use that reasoning if they felt prices would only minimally rise? Now your flipping it to sound as if the higher prices angle wasn't suppossed to imply HIGH prices that would cause customers to flinch. Why else would people complain about higher prices unless they felt the prices made a serious impact on their wallets? Let's be real. I believe that astronomical prices is the bigger concern of higer prices in general. For those that would be bothered by a slight increase, hey that's the adjustment I suspect would just have work itself out over time.
Teleburst said:
First of all, now it's just 5%-10%?
Neecey said:
Yes, after the 15%-25% that people tip anyway is added to the menu price. You keep needing a refresher on this part. Here's my post yet again:
"if customers are ALREADY use to the culture being 15-25% on top of their meal now then if prices rise 25% to cover wages then those who are already at the 25% mark aren't feeling any change and those that stick between 15-18-20% are only dealing with a 5-7-10% increasing"
Article states:
"Thus, it seems to us that only restaurants with price-insensitive customers can adopt service-inclusive pricing without risking the loss of customers."
Neecey said:
Well this would be true but how would they lose customers to other restaurants if wages were applied across the board? Every restaurant would have the same system therefore forcing the *price sensitive* customer to deal.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
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cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 10:01 pm: |
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Thanks for all the responses to my post.
Seems that there is some disagreement amongst members of this board, so please forgive these further inquiries.
It seems that tipping is a way to make up for the low basic wages of service staff. Fair enough, I can understand that. Restaurant prices in the US seemed a bit lower than western Europe and the parts of Asia I've lived in, but once the tip was factored in, pretty much evened out. If it really is compensation for the servers' time, wouldn't it be more appropriate to introduce a fixed fee for service? Something like $x per person, per hour. Service for caviar shouldn't cost more than service for toast, in my opinion. That way, the server would get close to a constant hourly wage and if the customer felt that the service was exceptional they could tip more. Conversely, if the service was awful, they could tip less, but if service was acceptable then a time based calculation would seem more equitable, rather than a % of the bill.
The certainly seems to be different service expectations from Americans. I've entertained a number of American guests at restaurants in Europe, Asia and Australia and have seen first-hand the difference. At certain upmarket restaurants in Australia, chefs will not make modifications to meals if they feel the integrity of the dish will be lost. One of my guests from Ohio was horrified when the chef refused his request to cook the beef "well done". I suspect it happens all over the world, but my guest was adamant that it's never happened to him at home. Thankfully some good red wine placated him pretty quickly!!
I don't think Australian tourists deliberately intend to "stiff" servers, but the concept of tipping is largely foreign to the majority of them, and given the conflicting views expressed here, there isn't even agreement from Americans as to how exactly the system should / does work.
I think I've got a rough handle on how restaurant tipping should work, but it seems that other people expect tips too! Hairdressers, hotel cleaners, taxi drivers. Perhaps if someone has list of people that I don't have to tip, I can work backwards from that.
Also, are receipts typically issued for tips? I'd need to claim all the expenses for a business trip and need receipts to susbstantiate the claim.
Cheers,
Cam.... |
neecey93
Advanced Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 678
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 10:41 pm: |
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cam_lon said:
and given the conflicting views expressed here, there isn't even agreement from Americans as to how exactly the system should / does work.
Neeecey said:
Good observation.
Make love not war! Peace! 8-b
|
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3081
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 03:18 pm: |
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Of course, there isn't even agreement in Australia about tipping down under.
So what's yer point? |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 03:25 pm: |
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hi cam,
Thanks for posting and for inquiring. Just got to mention, of course a site the discusses the merits and flaws of tipping is going to give the impression that its controversial. Its not ... most people tip and enjoy it. There are some differences of opinion, but thats why this site is here, to talk about and illustrate.
And in response to your post... I agree that it is difficult to compare restaurants across national boundries, which was why I isolated my test cities to comparable standards of living (thank you neecey93) and tried to pick one chain.
I like to work with as many real world numbers and real world facts as possible. Otherwise any discussion tends to degenerate into a no im right...no im right kinda thing.... |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 06, 2009 - 08:47 pm: |
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Teleburst - there is agreement about tipping in Australia. It's not necessary, but also not generally refused when offered.
My point was that you've complained about foreigners "stiffing" US servers, but can't agree amongst yourselves what's the appropriate tipping regime. You expect foreigners to somehow know what's appropriate when it's not even clear to the people who live there.
Regards,
Cam.... |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3082
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 01:29 am: |
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"My point was that you've complained about foreigners "stiffing" US servers, but can't agree amongst yourselves what's the appropriate tipping regime. You expect foreigners to somehow know what's appropriate when it's not even clear to the people who live there".
MY point is - pick up just about any travel guide and you'll find there's no disagreement. Go to just about any tipping guide on the internet and you'll see that there's no disagreement.
The "disagreements" that you see are blown up because, hey, this is an internet forum. In real life, there's very little variation in tipping. Do you really think that we would work for 2.13 an hour if there was a real risk of getting screwed by a lot of our guests? Of course not.
Internet forums allow people to act differently than they do in real life. They allow people to say things simply for entertainment and amusement or to make arguments simply for the sake of argument. I'd be careful about thinking that these wild arguments mimic real life.
And this is the case on the servers' side as well. We take the very few instances about getting screwed and use the internet to vent. What you don't hear is the other 98% of perfectly reasonable and appropriate tips.
It's a very rare day when I don't *average* over 18% pretax tips. For instance, tonight, I had only three tables. The first was $260 (all amounts actually post tax) and the tip was $50. the second was $150 and the tip was $30 (in cash) and the third was $185 with a tip of $40. Even after tipping out $30, I walked with $90, which is 15% AFTER tipout. My post-tax percentage was probably close to 24%, My pretax total was a tick over 20%.
Yes, I work in a high end place. But I have posts from 4 years ago here where I listed my tips while working in a churn and burn low priced hjoint which shows almost the same percentages (except that in those days, my tipout was over 45% so my take would have been lower). I don't think that my experience is much out of line with what the vast majority of servers make. Hooters girls probably average a lot more and some servers in big tourist destinations probably make a bit less (for obvious reasons). However, the vast majority of servers work in places that make about the same percentages that I quote. I found this to be the case back in the 90s when I was managing a restaurant that had average per person averages of around $20 for dinner. It was one of my closing duties to look at the tip averages of my servers. I don't remember a percentage ever being as lower 15% (our report generated pre-tax figures). there might have been and I just don't remember now, but it shows that it was probably such a rare occurance that it was probably due to some unusual circumstances and wasn't even worth noting.
My percentages are backed up by polls which show that average tips are between 17% and 19%. sure, we have bad nights sometimes. but the law of averages end up working in our favor.
"Teleburst - there is agreement about tipping in Australia. It's not necessary, but also not generally refused when offered".
If I were to take what I see at face value on the internet, I'd vigorously disagree. Here are the first two sites I pulled up where people in Australia talk about tipping and service charges.
http://www.bestrestaurants.com.au/Blogs/tipping-debate.aspx
Here, some people tip, some people never tip, some tip only in cash, some tip and tip big when their companies are paying. Some people start at 10% and deduct points for specific grieveances. Some people "round up a few dollars". And one thinks that it's "un-Australian" to tip.
http://www.postcardz.com.au/do-you-tip-in-australia.htm
According to this site, even travel guides have split on tipping standards (unlike travel guides about the US). And apparently, there are different standards for different types of restaurant. Andyes, according to this site, even Australian servers *expect* a tip (at least 5%).
So, you have to be careful about taking this stuff too seriously. Of course, you can say the same thing about the things I write. Unless I'm mocking some pest, I try to write truthfully and accurately about my experiences and the direct knowledge that I've gained over my 16 years in the business and try to be accurate about the figures I quote. You can take this at face value or not, but you ignore it at your own peril. Time after time, it's backed up by verifiable real world data. |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 02:47 am: |
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Teleburst - you're point about the internet is well made. It seems people are more willing to say things here than they would face-to-face.
The links you provided are quite interesting. I think the first one is how some people would like to see things, but it generally doesn't happen that way. When someone tips in Australia or the parts of Europe I've lived in, it's seen as a gratuity in the true sense of the word, rather than a necessary income supplement as it appears to be in the US. You can safely not tip anyone in Australia and not feel one iota of guilt or pressure.
Still it's good to better understand how things work in the US. There seems to be a few dissenting views, but around 15% seems right for good service. Correct?
A further question, is the tip actually added to the receipt issued by the restaurant? I'm wondering how business people can claim the tip as an expense if it doesn't appear on the bill. My company will only reimburse me for expenses I have receipts for.
One final question, if I may; how much would a good server in a good class of restaurant actually earn annually, pre-tax? I'm not inquiring as to your personal earnings as that would be impolite, but I'd be interested to know some rough figures. I would be also interested to know how it compares to other service professions.
Cheers,
Cam..... |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 03:28 pm: |
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"The links you provided are quite interesting. I think the first one is how some people would like to see things, but it generally doesn't happen that way".
That's pretty much the way it is here too.
"Still it's good to better understand how things work in the US. There seems to be a few dissenting views, but around 15% seems right for good service. Correct"?
Yep. When the service is above average to great, most people bump it up. I'll admit that many people automatically bump it up regardless unless the service is seriously lacking, but that's just something that some people do on their own. 15% is the "standard" (except for New York City, which is a fairly overheated economic envorinment. Seems that the advice is generally 18 - 20% there.
10% is considered an "insult tip". If the server deserved it, then you shouldn't care whether he or she considers it an "insult".
If the service is *really* bad or terribly rude, you can go lower.
As for the receipt thing, I would think that the credit card receipt with the original sales receipt would suffice. Different companies might have different standards though.
Until I got a job in an expensive restaurant with a lot of business business (if you get my drift), I always made between $22,000 and $30,000 (from about '98 and '05), give or take a few bucks. I think that's a pretty fair average. I made $36k last year during the economic crisis. The year before, I made $41.5k. There were a few servers who made well over $50k, but most of us made between $40k - $50k working full-time.
As of the end of August, I've got pretty close to $23k banked, including tips and hourly.
I make 2.13/hr and my average work week is somewhere around 32 - 35/hr a week.
Hope this helps. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 823
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 09:50 am: |
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So what's the bitch about. |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 10:41 pm: |
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Teleburst - thanks for the info. I can accept tipping 15% for good service. Is giving 0% tip for truly bad service likely to cause a ruckus?
In countries that add a service charge, I've refused to pay it when the service was awful. In most cases, the restaurant was actually glad that I mentioned it and offered a further bill reduction in either gratitude or compensation. Is that something that happens in the US?
Cheers,
Cam.... |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 08:22 am: |
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In countries that add a service charge, I've refused to pay it when the service was awful. In most cases, the restaurant was actually glad that I mentioned it and offered a further bill reduction in either gratitude or compensation. Is that something that happens in the US?
Acceptable and recommended on most of your fine dining restaurants.
Not to knock down chains and family restaurants, but in my experience, most restaurant managers in places like that are almost as unexperienced as some of the servers. So you'll get a mixed response from buying your meal to giving you a business card for home office complaints.
In the restaurant I work in, management wants to hear the complaint face to face and do everything they can to insure your business.
Leaving a 0% tip will do one of two things: Server will realize the service sucked and hope to improve on it OR they will see you as being cheap and be all upset that he/she had to wait on a foreigner. Do your brethren right, complain to management if service is that bad. |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 08:42 am: |
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Vozveratu - I would certainly make it known if there was a problem with the service, not leave a 0% tip and slink out.
Knowing that servers rely more heavily on tips in the US than most other countries, I think I'd be inclined to be more forgiving on issues that are not the servers fault, like problems with the food itself, noise or seating problems. I wouldn't want my wages to suffer if I did my job, but someone else in the company didn't do theirs.
Another question, if I may. I understand that medical insurance in the US is in many cases provided by ones employer. Do service staff typically get their medical coverage through their employer? I understand that medical coverage is extremely expensive in the US, and would imagine that this would be a much bigger contributor the overall cost of the dining experience than tipping would be. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 09:43 am: |
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"Another question, if I may. I understand that medical insurance in the US is in many cases provided by ones employer. Do service staff typically get their medical coverage through their employer? I understand that medical coverage is extremely expensive in the US, and would imagine that this would be a much bigger contributor the overall cost of the dining experience than tipping would be".
Actually, many companies don't indeed provide health care for their workers, which is part of the reason why around 25% of our population is uninsured.
It's for the very reason that you site that many, if not most, restaurants don't offer health insurance for their non-hourly or non-salary employees, or put limits on it that make it very hard to comply (such as always requiring a minimum of 30 hours, something that many servers don't do every single week due to the vagarities of the business). Of course, some restaurants don't bother for anything other than management because of the high turnover, both in the front *and* the back of the house.
I'm in one of those lucky situations where I get insurance, and it's pretty cheap. I pay $30 for a sort of stopgap sort of plan. It's good for ordinary type things, but would fail me in a catastrophic situation. I could pay $80 a month and cover much of a catastrophic event. That's still cheap by today's standards.
I get where you're going with this, but let's also remember that I've shown a 9-10% difference just from the wage situation between states that pay $8/h and states that pay $2.13/hr. A little of that could be the cost of living, but something like higher rent is a drop in the bucket compared to paying a full waitstaff much higher wages. Once can assume the same mix of restaurants that offer health insurance and restaurants that don't.
I once ran the numbers on my old restaurant, P.F. Chang's here on this forum (this one was a $5mil a year restaurant with a $17,000 rent). I'm going by memory, but I think I came up with a ~$500,000 a year increase in wages if they had to go to what servers were making there, which is $15 - 17/hr, and I used $15 an hour as an example. It's costly to keep 18 - 20 tipped employees on the clock for dinner (you lose 2 bartenders for lunch, but you have the same number of servers and server assistants). |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 09:36 pm: |
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So Teleburst - how do people in service industry cope if they have a major illness?
There's a lot of things I like about the US, but I wouldn't wish your medical insurance system on anyone. 25% uninsured is staggering in a country with as much wealth as the US.
We get a few of the American news stations here in Asia and it seems Mr. Obama is trying to fix the situation, but apparently there is a lot of opposition to his proposals. What's behind that? Do people not want their fellow citizens to be insured? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3099
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 10:26 am: |
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"So Teleburst - how do people in service industry cope if they have a major illness"?
See, that's the thing. A lot of small businesses of all types don't offer insurance because it's too expensive. But we cope by not having a major illness <g>.
Seriously, you basically get emergency care and then end up going bankrupt when the bills come due.
"There's a lot of things I like about the US, but I wouldn't wish your medical insurance system on anyone. 25% uninsured is staggering in a country with as much wealth as the US".
I agree with you. We Americans seem to have a stubborn streak. We think that it's the very "individualistic" nature of our society that makes us strong. We should take care of ourselves, not let daddy government do it for us. My thought? That a modern society and government has a basic responsibility for the health and welfare of its citizens. Personally, I think that this falls under the "promote the general Welfare" part of the Preamble to our Constitution, but Conservatives and Libertarians seem to disagree.
"We get a few of the American news stations here in Asia and it seems Mr. Obama is trying to fix the situation, but apparently there is a lot of opposition to his proposals. What's behind that? Do people not want their fellow citizens to be insured"?
Apparently not. People are scared of government. It's not the days of Kennedy anymore.
Stupid? Yeah, I personally think so. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 12:35 pm: |
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See this is where I dissagree with Teleburst.
First off, look at the past few years and what the government has failed to do. Bail outs, failing social security, failing Medicare for the elderly, etc.
And we want these same people running a full fledge healthcare system? I don't think so.
It's not that people in America would not want some kind of system that could support the American People, it's the trust that people have on the government, that makes them nervous.
People who don't have a problem with this are the people who have nothing to lose; Poor people, sick people, and illegal immigrants (well maybe deportation). They support anything the government wants to pass if it means they can have something for free.
The people who are having problems with this are the people forking over hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in taxes to just support what is out there now.
With the deficit we have now, then add the money needed to run a healthcare system, most of my tips are going to move from one hand and right into another. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
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I knew that there would be disagreement.
It's funny though - there are times in most peoples' lives where they need assistance and they "have nothing to lose". All of us will be "sick" at some point. It's funny when people say, "I hate the idea of a government health plan - don't you DARE touch my Medicare"!
I remember recently when Craig T. Nelson ranted on Glenn Beck "I've been on welfare and food stamps - anyone help ME out?" after talking about how businesses shouldn't be "bailed out". Jon Stewart picked up on that irony pretty quickly. It's a real laugher.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-19-2009/fox-news--the-new-liberals
(about 5 minutes in)
I happen to believe that a free society isn't "free". I know that others disagree with me.
It would be nice if everyone would take care of his or her fellow citizens without government assistance. This happens to a certain extent. And it would be nice if there was a level playing field as well - you could defend government non-intervention better if this were the case. This hasn't always been the case. Substantial portions of our population were shut out from the political process until fairly recently, and, let's face it, even today these "poor people" aren't generally represented by their peers in government anyway.
I just think it's outrageous that even middle and upper middle class people have to go bankrupt to get quality medical care. I think it's outrageous that insurance companies can take your money until you actually get sick. Then you get dropped.
But, once again, this is just my opinion. |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 10:34 pm: |
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Teleburst - I think we are on the same wavelength, but then I grew up in what could be described as a partly socialist democracy. I never paid a cent (directly) for health care or education right up through university level. I also lived lived for a time in Scandinavia and that made me think that Australia wasn't socialist enough! Those guys really have a great system, although it's not completely perfect. In my opinion, there's no excuse for a wealthy country not to be willing or able to provide basics like health care to all. Fair enough if resources are particularly scarce, but that's not the case with the US, Western Europe etc.
If as Vozveratu suggests, that the government can't be trusted, then you need a better government. Other countries manage to do it, and in my experience, Americans are as capable as anyone else, so I can't see why the goal can't be attained there.
Cheers,
Cam.... |
goldenfoxx
Member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 12:19 am: |
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Im amused... we need better government because we expect people to be responsible for thier own well being....hmmmmm... yeha I get back to you on that one. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 834
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 03, 2009 - 10:31 pm: |
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Well we are waiting. |
cam_lon
New member
Username: cam_lon
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 02:24 am: |
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Goldenfoxx, I said that if you can't trust the government to deliver health care, then you need better government. Other countries manage to do it, so can the US. If you expect people to look after themselves, then you don't need government at all. I suspect however that the US will still maintain some more of administration, despite what you say. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1475
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 08:01 am: |
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I said that if you can't trust the government to deliver health care, then you need better government.
Hence, the voting process. I have a strong feeling, many Republicans are going to be voted in the house come next year's election.
It's too bad we don't have a lot of Republicans speaking out against it, however I know why they are keeping silent. Politics.
If John Doe of North Carolina decided to speak out against the Democrats,
-Bill passes and succeeds, Republicans look like fools.
-If he speaks out against it and the bill doesn't pass, then the Democrats can use his negative comments as a reason it failed to pass.
-If he spoke out, bill passes and then fails, then people would blame him for letting it pass and for not speaking out loud enough.
It's better to keep quiet when one party is trying to pass something American people know will not succeed.
Tell you the truth, I think the economy is the reason the Healthcare bill is failing. People out of jobs, struggling to put food on the table, are worried more about their way of life, than the possibility of needing healthcare. 10 years ago, I think this would have passed.
I think it was bad timing and I think Obama should have stayed focused on having the market succeed with better jobs, etc. Once they see this move back up, then they could sell the idea of, "Americans, Food is on your table, money is in your pocket, and a rough over your head. Let protect ourselves, protect our children with a better healthcare..."
Sold! |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 3137
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 03:07 pm: |
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"10 years ago, I think this would have passed".
15 years ago it failed miserably. Just ask Hillary.
9 years ago, they were too busy trying to privatize Social Security. Imagine how many people would have a lost a chunck of their "retirement funds" without a fallback position the the Repubs had their way. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1476
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 07:37 am: |
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Heh, true that. Forgot about Hillary's program. I think the scandal crap kept that from coming through, too.
The biggest question is where the money is coming from? You can't slap a healthcare system in place without some sort of cost. They either - cut costs in other places, or raise taxes to pay for it.
Due to the economy, no one wants higher taxes. That leaves cutting costs. Lots of politics around that. Every senator, representative and elected official is striving to have money fall down on those that supported them. Start cutting costs, you're basically signing away any chance of re-election.
Hince why politics is a crazy biz. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 203
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 08:15 pm: |
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Hillary's plan failed in Clinton's first term. Clinton's impeachment was during his second term. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 06:48 am: |
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Not the impeachment. The whitewater scandal. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 204
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 08, 2009 - 10:25 pm: |
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Oh, yeah, that one. How could I forget?!
The shredder was working overtime. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 836
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 08:47 pm: |
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Monica is 44 today, I can remember when she was on her hands and knees in the oval office. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1479
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:48 am: |
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Monica is 44 today
Wow, time flies. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 205
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 10:40 pm: |
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No, she's actually 36. I thought it didn't sound right so I looked it up. |