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neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 336
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 02:06 pm: | 
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I posted this on Tipping in the media (redux) where the blog link was posted originally but this specific topic seems interesting enough to have it's own thread. Basically what I'm wondering is do servers really feel it's justified to criticize people who are now cutting back from generous tipping to average tipping? I know it affects people's bottom line but if the tip doesn't fall into insult range (under 15%) then where is the legitimacy of such complaints? Due to economic times seems to be a *wrong* reason but honestly reality is reality.
http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/tipping-and-the-recession/
This discussion is my fav. If you can't tip 20% then you can't afford to eat out. I'm in the camp that feels 15-18% is okay for average/good service. 20% and up is usually saved for when I'm feeling completely satisfied with my server at the end of my experience. However tipping practices aside, as long as the minimum percent is being complied with then I don't see any reason to fault customers for cutting down on generousities.
Is the sentiment: you can't afford to go out to eat if you can't pay your bill (which includes 15% tip)and I agree with or is it really: if you can't afford to continue to be a generous tipper then stay home??? It sort sounds like it's the latter
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 27, 2009) |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 02:28 pm: |
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Well, the whole thing on that aspect is the server doesn't know.
If customer comes in and service was good or above and server gets 15%, he/she would know that it's due to money issues.
If the customer admits to the server that they wish they could tip more, that seems a bit crappy. Don't bother telling me.
If the customer is coming in and stating obvious things like; are their any featured priced items, are the re-fills free, is bread included, does that entree come with anything free and then you get a basic 15%, then more in likely they are cutting costs. Again, I would hold the customer liable, but I wouldn't want to go out and worry about my money. Doesn't seem like a pleasant night and I'd rather eat mac and cheese instead.
Now if a regular is coming in alot and is always tipping 20%, then later he/she comes in less and starts tipping 15%, then we can guess something is up. But from all the earlier tips, I'm pleased that he/she is still coming back. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2677
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 02:28 pm: |
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"Basically what I'm wondering is do servers really feel it's justified to criticize people who are now cutting back from generous tipping to average tipping? I know it affects people's bottom line but if the tip doesn't fall into insult range (under 15%) then where is the legitimacy of such complaints"?
Personally, I think that if people aren't as generous because of the current economic climate, that's understandable. However, if they cut back on tipping past the point of what's reasonable (for instance, tipping 12% where they would have normally have tipped 15% for good service), then yes, I've got a bit of a problem with that. If they no longer tip 25% for great service and "only" tip 18 - 20% now, that's not a problem to me. If they stop leaving tips or leave what would normally be considered an "insult tip" just so that they can maintain their normal dining, then I have a serious problem with that. If they stop tipping on $40 bottles of wine (the next to cheapest bottle of merlot on the list), as someone recently did to me, yeah, I'm going to bitch about it afterwards. If someone starts tipping 12% on mediocre service instead of being generous and tipping 15%, fine with me. That's what they should be doing in the first place. I'm not looking for charity. I want to be compensated for my efforts appropriately.
Finally, if someone starts looking for the tiniest mistake in order to dock me when they would normally look at the whole experience and only do this simply because the economy is bad and they want to save some money so that they can get that extra glass of wine, this would make me uncomfortable. I probably wouldn't know if this were the case though, so I doubt I would ascribe that to any guest (the same probably holds true for most of the above situations as well, although sometimes it can be clear when someone isn't doing the right or normal thing).
Personally I haven't seen very much of this. My biggest hit has been people downsizing their meals/drinks, fewer butts in seats and fewer shifts available. Oddly enough though, in general, I don't think that my per person average has been hurt that badly despite the downsizing that some people are doing. Maybe I've just been lucky with a few "unconcerned" parties that have spent a lot of money during the same time period. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 338
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 02:38 pm: |
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So the whole mentality sweeping the nation about staying home if you can't afford that 20% tip does seem rather extreme.
Okay, it's not just me then. These posts by servers or former servers or friends of servers or guilt ridden customers are littered all over the place. I just wonder how some think it's logical to expect such things and condemn practices that should be expected in times like these. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 02:58 pm: |
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I just posted a comment I found on the other thread.
Yeah, I'm certainly not an automatic 20% tipper, average is around 18% (post tax, although I don't agree with the philosophy, hee, hee). I'm not staying at home if I don't want to so they'll just have to suck it up if I leave 15% for average service. I can't believe some of the comments on there. Now I see where the entitlement rep comes from.
FYI, I'm not talking about you two. You certainly seem to have the right attitude with waiting. There are some voices of reason among those comments as well, some being servers or ex-servers.
(Message edited by kris on March 27, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 340
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:15 pm: |
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Kris said:
I'm not staying at home if I don't want to so they'll just have to suck it up if I leave 15% for average service. I can't believe some of the comments on there. Now I see where the entitlement rep comes from.
Neecey said:
Yeah, aren't some of those posts just a little bit crazy? That's why I'm always so surprised when my point of view is recieved with so much astonishment. I mean it's no secret that there are entitlement issues big and small floating around this profession. Now acknowledging that doesn't diminish the fact that there are a good amount of crappy customers out there. |
ohioborn
Member
Username: ohioborn
Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:30 pm: |
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Totally agree with you both on those points. I remember a lot of your posts, Neecey, trying to explain just how it is in NYC; it is probably one of those things where a person just has to be there for awhile and personally experience it a few times. I was in NYC about 10 years ago on a business trip, and just remembered how everything in some ways moved so much faster, and yet in other ways was so congested that it seemed to take forever for certain things. I am looking forward to seeing it again this spring. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 10:11 pm: |
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I got back to finishing this one:http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/05/ticked-about-tipping/
There's a lot of bickering between pre and post tax on that one.
I'm probably going to be those old bitties that only tip 15-20% while everyone else is tipping 20-30%. I think things will be changing with this economy, though. People will get back to reality. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 677
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 06:22 am: |
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No tipping on tax. 10% tops. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2678
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:52 am: |
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"So the whole mentality sweeping the nation about staying home if you can't afford that 20% tip does seem rather extreme".
I totally agree, although I'd point out again that this was a NYC based discussion. That's the only break I'd give that particular post, but I do it reluctantly. Maybe 20% on Manhattan *is* the normal 15% everywhere else do to the hyper-extended nature of the place.
But I've read in other places that 20% is the "new minimum" and I completely disagree and I'll continue to hammer that home wherever I can. Either we have a well-established standard or we don't. I maintain that we do. It's the same standard that's been around for decades and decades. It's 15% as a baseline. At the beginning, it might have been a somewhat arbitrary figure, but it isn't anymore. All of the cost structures of a restaurant, to include menu prices, are based on that figure.
But it's also not fair to tinker with it for the sole purpose of saving money during an economic crisis either. It cuts both ways. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2679
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:04 am: |
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"Yeah, I'm certainly not an automatic 20% tipper, average is around 18% (post tax, although I don't agree with the philosophy, hee, hee). I'm not staying at home if I don't want to so they'll just have to suck it up if I leave 15% for average service. I can't believe some of the comments on there. Now I see where the entitlement rep comes from".
Sure, there's plenty of venting. But I also see the same phenomenon from customers on these forums as well. I could say the same thing about servers seeing where the "spoiled and entitled customer" comes from, especially since we don't have to guess about it happening or wonder what's on their mind because they tell us directly through their actions when they demand fairly unreasonable things knowing that the restaurant is going to cave in on their demands. People want to restructure coupons, or make the restaurant accept out of date promotions or have the chef completely redo the recipe or demand a larger liquor pour, or think that they can get a well done filet in 10 minutes, and the list goes on and on. However, I still cherish my guests and i don't make blanket judgments about everyone based on the actions (or posted words for that matter) of a few. I take a lot of it with a grain of salt. And I don't think I've ever quoted any of those posts as some sort of proof that many guests have a bad attitude.
And it's perfectly fine to leave 15% for nothing more than average service.
BTW, thanks for tipping post tax even though you don't have to. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2680
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:10 am: |
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"Yeah, aren't some of those posts just a little bit crazy? That's why I'm always so surprised when my point of view is recieved with so much astonishment. I mean it's no secret that there are entitlement issues big and small floating around this profession. Now acknowledging that doesn't diminish the fact that there are a good amount of crappy customers out there".
It would have been nice if you have explicitly said that some of those posts were crazy from servers *and* guests . You acknowledged the "crappy customer" thing at the end but it was almost like an afterthought and didn't really address any of the fairly crazy posts from people who displayed rude and entitled opinions from the other side of the table. And, believe me, there were plenty of them.
The bulk of your comments were obviously only about the "little bit crazy" server posts.
But thanks for that last part anyway. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 347
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 12:52 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
It would have been nice if you have explicitly said that some of those posts were crazy from servers *and* guests . You acknowledged the "crappy customer" thing at the end but it was almost like an afterthought and didn't really address any of the fairly crazy posts from people who displayed rude and entitled opinions from the other side of the table. And, believe me, there were plenty of them.
Neecey said:
So my post isn't good enough for you? Well that's a surprise. Maybe I should have put the last sentence first or maybe I should get out the thesaurus in order to word my annoyance in a nicer way? I'm not going to be some passive poster throwing in "no offense" here and "i'm just saying" there in order to soften my post. Wouldn't work anyway because the post you happen to be trying to pick apart is pretty tame. You really had to look into it to find a reason to criticize it. But then again I expect nothing less from you.
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 28, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2684
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 01:11 pm: |
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Look, you have to admit that your post only referenced server posts (as well as your previous posts). Even the bit on the end had nothing to do with what was being written in the forum that you referenced.
It's that simple.
Besides, if you actually read through the many posts, there are far more servers wondering where that 20% thing came from (and even noting that it might have been because of the flush times in the recent past) and taking the original poster to task than supporting the original statement that you quoted.
I'm not surprised that you didn't notice that. Actually, most of the posts, both from servers *and* guests, were quite reasonable and made good points. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 348
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 01:58 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Look, you have to admit that your post only referenced server posts (as well as your previous posts). Even the bit on the end had nothing to do with what was being written in the forum that you referenced.
Neecey said:
So, that's my way of acknowledging the other side. Excuse me if I don't go into detail regarding both sides but it's no secret that I come here to debate what I feel is wrong with the tipping system and the mentalities it creates. I won't waste my time with the customer is a pain angle because it's apples and oranges. One person is paying for a certain experience and the other is getting paid to provide it so there should in fact be an allowable amount of *entitlement* on the part of the customer.
I don't feel that a customer should treat servers as servants (as I've mentioned plenty of times before) but I don't believe customers should be as apprehensive to make requests as some servers suggest they be. I don't think it's necessary to litter my posts with "shame on customers" comments in order for my opinions and points to be legit or with merit. Is it suppossed to be some show of good will? |
ohioborn
Member
Username: ohioborn
Post Number: 127
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 02:59 pm: |
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It's human nature at work here. Yeah, Neecey, I, and others see things more from the side we experience, and that is from the customer's perspective. Servers are going to see it more from the servers side. That's how it is. I think it would be best to examine the spirit of what is written, and not the order that it is written in, or picking apart comments word by word, and finding fault with the words chosen. It really detracts from the spirit of a good discussion. Just like opinions in the newspaper, on the news, etc..many times the side that is concenrated on is the side someone wants to concentrate on, or has experience in. I do not think we all need to perfectly balance all our comments...we all say (well, type) what we feel. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 349
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 05:41 pm: |
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I think it would be best to examine the spirit of what is written, and not the order that it is written in, or picking apart comments word by word, and finding fault with the words chosen.
It really detracts from the spirit of a good discussion.
I do not think we all need to perfectly balance all our comments...we all say (well, type) what we feel.
Neecey said:
Thank you! You explained it very well.
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 28, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2685
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 11:07 am: |
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"Excuse me if I don't go into detail regarding both sides but it's no secret that I come here to debate what I feel is wrong with the tipping system and the mentalities it creates".
Actually, it doesn't seem that way to me, one of the only 2 people that has actually taken up the debate, and I'll admit that Voz has a lot more patience and "good will" (more about that later) than I do. You have repeatedly said that you don't need to back up your opinions with substance, because, well, it's an opinion and it's how you feel. No need to support it with facts on the ground.
Well, that's no "debate" at all. It's really barely a discussion.
Feel what you want. But expect those feelings to be challenged if there are relevant facts that you haven't considered. And don't fall back on the ole "It's the way I feel and that's that" sort of defense. At least don't pretend that you're "debating" the subject.
For instance, if someone ouside the industry tried to support servers by saying "I think that they work very long hours so they deserve at least 20%", I'd be the first person to point out that this opinion is based on faulty information. When people blithely ask, "Why shouldn't we do it like the French?", I'm going to answer the question based on my actual experience and knowledge, especially because few of them make a reasoned case for it. If people advocate a fixed service charge, I'm going to make the best case against it, and I'm not going to just express it from the standpoint of it purely a benefit to me, even though it might benefit me if I didn't think about it more deeply. I'm going to point out the pitfalls from the guest's standpoint as well. If I post a series of links, I'm not going to cherry pick them to only support my opinion. In fact, I'm going to make sure that the most challenging ones to a server's well-being are first.
That's the way that I enter a debate. And yes, I'm not above using the "People who live in glass houses" argument either.
"I don't think it's necessary to litter my posts with "shame on customers" comments in order for my opinions and points to be legit or with merit. Is it suppossed to be some show of good will"?
It shows fairness and a willingness to acknowledge that there are two sides to the story. But thanks for implying that good will isn't very high on your agenda. If that's the case, why take me to task for not returning the lack of good will when it's not offered to me? Perhaps I just don't have the grace to ignore it when people call my occupation a "racket". |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 350
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 01:14 pm: |
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Now the debate is how to express oneself on this board. Good grief. I suggest you go back and read ohioborns post since you totally ignored it. He pretty much sums it up rather nicely. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2688
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 03:02 pm: |
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Uh oh, Neecey's just hijacked the thread. Sound the alarm bells!
I note that I didn't change the debate into what you say it is. Physician, heal thyself. Or maybe you should go after Ohioborn for "going off topic". <chuckle>
(Message edited by teleburst on March 29, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 354
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:38 pm: |
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So my theory is: because of the economy servers shouldn't be too critical over the tipping habits of guests as long as tips meet the minimum 15% (provided things go well during the meal). |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 12:04 am: |
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I'll just interject that I don't think it's necessary to mention some comments just as a disclaimer to something that concerns me. Is it really worthwhile to state there are some on the customer side saying they should tip the same amount for a burger as they would for lobster because I don't think anyone here feels the same. That isn't news to me that some people in the world feel that way. Now, "20% or stay home!" is. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 09:47 am: |
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Just to chime in, 15% is for average service in most, if not all places of table side dining. 18% is added on for auto-grats on parties of 5-6 or more. While 20% is the usual for Banquet/Function Parties that utilize a room.
All these other websites that claim 20% is the average is plain wrong. Even in places like New York, the price of food and wine is higher than the price of food or wine in North Carolina. So the 15% of those amounts would be different, which indicates the cost of living.
Servers want 20%, but will only get that if they go beyond the call of duty. Maybe this is why they are posting the average of 20%. Maybe these servers are going beyond the call of duty for ALL of their tables and they are getting the 15% average.
If they're getting mad about this, then they have two choices. Live with it, or give 15% service without going crazy on getting excellent service. Of course, if the managers are demanding this level of service, then they have to deal with it.
Teleburst and myself can only speak for ourselves. I've run into people I work with who bitch and complain about the things you all would be furious about; but that's life. Some people want more. Some people are happy with what they have. Those who complain and whine about issues will live painfull and miserable lives and will either be fired, due to this showing, or they will leave for a stable pay type job. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 02:13 pm: |
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"So my theory is: because of the economy servers shouldn't be too critical over the tipping habits of guests as long as tips meet the minimum 15% (provided things go well during the meal)".
Nope, not *too* critical. But my theory is, if you're going to pass along the pain of the economy to someone else, don't be too critical if your service gets a little less personal and a little less concerned (providing of course that "things go well during the meal"). |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 356
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 04:18 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
But my theory is, if you're going to pass along the pain of the economy to someone else
Neecey said:
Pass along? So it should just stay with me? So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed? I get less I spend less. I used to give to charity 5 times a year and now I can only afford to do it 3 times a year. What's wrong with being less generous? I mean my employers are being less generous with me because of the economy so why shouldn't that trickle into all other aspects of my world? Slight changes are necessary. I have to buy cheaper jeans, not less quality just not brand name. I have to by the supermarket brand of more stuff but still have the same grocery list. I used to splurge on that whole "what's a couple of dollars" syndrome and leave 20% most of the time but that's not practical anymore so 15% it is. Why is that unacceptable? I'm not saying that I won't leave more if you blow me away but I didn't think much of the extra couple of bucks before, now I do. Point being, I was being overly generous in the past and now I've curbed my carefree manner when it comes to spending. That shouldn't be considered something to be ashamed of.
Voz said:
Of course, if the managers are demanding this level of service, then they have to deal with it.
Neecey said:
Or take it up with their manager and maybe try and have some kind of voice regarding realistic expectations.
Voz said:
Some people are happy with what they have. Those who complain and whine about issues will live painfull and miserable lives and will either be fired, due to this showing, or they will leave for a stable pay type job.
Neecey said:
See, that's how I figure it. Either you stay, go or get better and if you realize that being a server is just not for you then move on. It's like that with most professions. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 09:11 am: |
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To the point, if your tipping 20% for excellent service and you start to tip 15% for the same service BECAUSE of your lower income, then you should rethink your dining habits.
A person struggling to make car payments is not going to go out and buy another car.
Person unable to pay the power is not going to go to Disneyland for the week.
Person not able to pay the credit card bill is not going to apply for more credit.
If your going out and purposely tipping less because your short on money is wrong, don't you think?
Why not ask the manager if you can have a free appetizer because your having a hard time with making money? If you find that statement to be lame, so is the statement to dock the server on his income because you can't afford to pay him.
I know. Next time you hire a painter to paint your house and he's all done. Ask him if you can pay 1/2 the bill because of hard times. See how far that gets you. Lucky for him, he has the law on his side.
And I quote, "Tip on the level of service, not the level of your salary." |
ohioborn
Member
Username: ohioborn
Post Number: 129
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 11:14 am: |
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If we have been tipping 20% for average service, because we had the funds to do so, and were being generous, assuming now we do not still have as much surplus funds, it is ok to go back to tipping 15% for average service then? And, instead of giving 23-25% for good to great service, we now give 20% for good-great service, again due to lower funds. I would think that would be ok, but that is just my opinion. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 359
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 01:08 pm: |
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Voz said:
If your going out and purposely tipping less because your short on money is wrong, don't you think?
Neecey said:
I'm purposely not being AS generous as I was being before so the point I'm trying to make is I was one of those hey what's a couple of extra dollars people (you know like here's a tad bit extra cause hey why not you seem nice). It didn't make much of a difference to me before. Now getting older, having a child I'm more responsible with my spending. I've realized that spreading the wealth isn't really practical anymore cause frankly I'm not wealthy and call me crazy but I had to rethink my spending habits. I don't go out as often. I'm not ordering the most expensive thing on the menu and yes I'm just paying for the service provided to me and trying not to let that smiley face on the bill make a difference. It's all pretty calculated and like I said if you blow me away then I'll reward you but I used to be in the camp of 22%-25% tip reward. Can't do that anymore everything has got to give a little bit so now good/great service falls into 18%-20%. Now if 15% is the standard for average services then isn't 18-20% still respectable?
I'm not bleeding financially but some tightening is necessary and unneccessary spending needs to be limited. It's not like the only thing I'm stopping is tipping 22-25% in order to balance my budget. As long as the tipping isn't falling under the established acceptable ranges (which are still up for debate but whatever) then how is there any legitmate complaint?
That's the tricky part of the tipping system. I admit to lowering my percentages and somehow I look bad even though i've mentioned that I still stick with the 15-18-20% scale although 18-20% is reserved for good/excellent. I've just admitted to having a business like approach to it. Is the server going to suffer? No, the server will still get a tip within reasonable range so what's not kosher about this approach?
There's just too much explaining oneself. I mean I was really generous before and now I can't afford to. It's like I admit to being able to still go out to dine and still fulfill the tipping expectations however there's still a vibe of: Oh, sure you're still treating yourself but you not rewarding servers like you used to. If you can't afford it anymore then you probably should stay home.
Uh, not really I can still afford to dine out from time to time I just think it's irresponsible to my budget, my responsibilities and my family to justify spending even more money with hey, the server shouldn't feel the burden of my budget tightening. Especially when there really isn't any burden on the server at all since they will most likely get an acceptable tip from me. Flashy? Probably not, but acceptable yes.
Ohioborn said:
If we have been tipping 20% for average service, because we had the funds to do so, and were being generous, assuming now we do not still have as much surplus funds, it is ok to go back to tipping 15% for average service then?
Neecey said:
That's exactly what I was getting at when I started the thread. It's like there seems to be some fault with going back to the basic tipping model if you've admitted to following higher percentage model in the past.
Here's what I used to do. At the end of a meal I would pick the percent that I felt was most appropriate for the service provided. Let's say a bit above average to good. I would calculate 18% THEN I would just throw a couple of extra dollars on that because why not. If there were no mishaps and the server was nice enough sure. The couple of extra bucks was what I called the *good tipper* part. If it was much better and I was really happy with service then I would start at 20% and do the same thing. 15% would probably get maybe a buck more. Now I've opted to stop that whole throw a couple of extra dollars on top of the original calculation. It really isn't necessary since the basic tip calculation (whichever percent I choose) covers the cost of the service provided me. I mean that's how I see it.
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 31, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 360
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 01:24 pm: |
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Oh and I forgot to add that I will be rating service a little more business like as well. Good service isn't just writing something down and getting my order plus a drink. Good service would need to be just that. If you're not invested in the experience of the guest at your table then 15% it is. I used to be more forgiving about that but it's a show of disrespect to your guest to assume that they shouldn't require much and yet still be generous in there reward. 18% means you need to pay attention and check in from time to time. Anything less than that is 15%. You better believe that these economic times has me keeping up with my responsibilities at MY job to keep it so you better believe I expect nothing less from other professions that are looking to me for compensation. No one is above doing there job and that's a pet peeve of mine. Earn your wage the same way I have to earn mine. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 361
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 01:46 pm: |
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Voz said:
A person struggling to make car payments is not going to go out and buy another car.
Person unable to pay the power is not going to go to Disneyland for the week.
Person not able to pay the credit card bill is not going to apply for more credit.
Neecey said:
But those are extremes. My point is about not being AS generous. If the argument is: Can't pay the power then of course going out to dine is out of the question. But if the argument is: Tighten up the budget where you can and where it's appropriate then what's the problem? Like I cut back on cable channels. I've regulated the usage applicances to lower the electric bill. I only bought 3 boxes of girl scout cookies instead of the 8 I usually buy.
In all those equations service providers are seeing less money from me but I'm still paying for what I'm receiving. I mean it still is business after all. That's what I'm trying to get at. It may sound a bit stiff and pretty sterile but there you have it. No contracts are being broken. Why shouldn't it be a more calculated experience? As long as it stays pleasant and appropriate. I have my dinner, get nice service and enjoy the company I'm with. The meal and the service goes well which concludes with paying for products and services. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 02:25 pm: |
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*sigh*
Couple things:
1st - If your tipping 20% because your generous, then that is wrong. I've stated before and I disagree with any waiter/waitress who would post otherwise; tip on the level of service. That is what your paying for. If you want to 'give' money away, hand some money to the homeless or donate to a charity.
Now don't get me wrong, I welcome it. Problem is I would not know whether your being generous or tipping on my excellent service, unless you told me. So how would I know this?
2nd - The statements your all are making is open for debate. Your stating that if times are tough, your going to tip less when you go out to eat. Let me state it in black and white:
"I am not making as much money as I used to, so when I go out, I'm going to tip less."
Let me repeat that:
"I am not making as much money as I used to, so when I go out, I'm going to tip less."
Has it hit, yet?
You can sugar coat all you want on how your kids come first, bills have to be paid, blah blah blah. But the fact is your tipping less than you used to because of lower income.
Now, I'm not made of money, so when my wife and I want to go out, we will visit places we can afford to eat. I know from experience, that I'll eat at the chains knowing that my average per person is 20.00 each, plus 8-10 tip. So around 50.00 for the both of us. If I want to spend less, I go to a different, lower priced place. If I make a bonus and have some money to throw, I'll visit one of the nice places.
What do I tip? 15% for average, 18% for good, 20% for great. The percentage doesn't change, however the amounts change based on the place I'm eating at. If I'm strapped for cash, I'm not going to say, "Hey, lets eat at Ruth's Chris, spend 120.00 on the food and tip 15.00 because times are tough.
Save 65.00 and get a steak at Outback. 50.00 on food with a 10.00 tip. Everyone is happy.
As I quoted before, "Tip on the level of service, not the level of your salary." |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2694
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 02:29 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
But my theory is, if you're going to pass along the pain of the economy to someone else
Neecey said:
Pass along? So it should just stay with me"?
In a word, yes. I'm not banging down the door to your business demanding that you take a 12% pay cut simply becuse I have (even though your line of work has crippled the economy and is the very cause of my pay cut).
"So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed"?
You shouldn't change the criteria that you base tipping on. The accepted standard isn't "15% unless you don't have the money". It's fair for you to not be as "generous" if you've been "overly generous" in the past.
"What's wrong with being less generous"?
Nothing. I've already said that. If you were previously tipping 25% for outstanding service "just because you could", there's nothing wrong with downsizing to 20%. However, if you really thought that 25% was "appropriate" for such service, then, no, I don't think you should change your tipping habits. Just do what you would do if they eliminated tipping and had to raise menu prices - dine out less. Does that hurt me if you don't dine out as much? Yes. But at least I'm still actually getting compensated for the service that I actually give.
"I used to splurge on that whole "what's a couple of dollars" syndrome and leave 20% most of the time but that's not practical anymore so 15% it is".
If you were leaving 20% when the service was only "adequate", then I'd maintain that you weren't tipping "appropriately". Tip according to the level of service, not according to what you think the server is going to think or the fact that you didn't get a bonus last year. In the rest of the US, this means 15%, plus or minus. there in Manhatten, you might very well be stuck with a higher standard. But you live on an island with a higher standard. That's the price you pay for having thousands of restaurants with hundreds of different cuisines at your disposal. Make the current servers there *earn* their money. If the service is as bad there as you say, you've been enabling it if you've been "overly generous".
PS, I note that these examples of percentages are based on outside of Manhattan. Not being there, I can't say how valid the "20% for average service on Manhattan" is. The examples I used are really for the rest of the country and not be taken as literal percentages for dining on 2nd Ave. in downtown NYC. They're just examples in general.
(Message edited by teleburst on March 31, 2009)
(Message edited by teleburst on March 31, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2695
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 02:34 pm: |
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"If we have been tipping 20% for average service, because we had the funds to do so, and were being generous, assuming now we do not still have as much surplus funds, it is ok to go back to tipping 15% for average service then? And, instead of giving 23-25% for good to great service, we now give 20% for good-great service, again due to lower funds. I would think that would be ok, but that is just my opinion".
Absolutely. That's my whole point about "tipping appropriately". A server outside of Manhattan shouldn't complain about a 20% tip. Not even if they think they've gone above and beyond the call of duty.
And you shouldn't enable a lackadasical server by giving them 20% when they were only going through the motions. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 02:36 pm: |
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"Good service would need to be just that. If you're not invested in the experience of the guest at your table then 15% it is".
That's an extremely well-stated version of my convoluted attempts of explaining what I think is at the core of waiting tables.
Thank you. I'll probably steal it in the future. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 363
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 03:30 pm: |
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Voz said:
Now don't get me wrong, I welcome it. Problem is I would not know whether your being generous or tipping on my excellent service, unless you told me. So how would I know this?
Neecey said:
EXACTLY! Damned if you do damned if ya don't. There are plenty that are out there giving away the farm. It's an imbalanced system. Not that I don't understand the points made on both sides it's just there's no way to regulate. See what I'm getting at. It's easy to up the tip if you're feeling good that day and think the server had a nice smile and you just came from the spa... etc. etc. Unless everyone sticks with the strict outline on tipping practices then it just flops around with no real substance and is open for interpretation. Some servers have fallen into the greedy category of believing 20% is the new 15% and others are a bit more reserved when making that determination. There's just no way to regulate it so that when situations come up like our current economic problem realistic expectations are just not the same all over. Server A thinks I'm being cheap but server B thinks my tipping is generous whereas server C thinks it's average.
Voz said:
"I am not making as much money as I used to, so when I go out, I'm going to tip less."
Has it hit, yet?
Neecey said:
Not really cause I don't see where that's wrong unless I've gone below the appropriate range for the service I've received.
Voz said:
You can sugar coat all you want on how your kids come first, bills have to be paid, blah blah blah. But the fact is your tipping less than you used to because of lower income.
Neecey said:
What am I sugar coating? The fact that I'm not as generous for very good reason. I'm talking about pulling back the EXTRA $2-$3 I USED to leave because money was no object at a certain point in my life. In my 20's living alone, money to burn. That was frivelous. Even if the person getting that money is a server it was still frivelous.
I think we are arguing the same point which is tip appropriately. Before I dropped a couple of extra bucks down to turn a nice tip into a little bit of a nicer tip and sometimes I wasn't sure if my *nice* tip would even be recognized as such(with the whole 20% is the new 15%) so I also did that to cover all the bases. That's how I ended up in the 22%-25% for great service.
Voz said:
If I want to spend less, I go to a different, lower priced place. If I make a bonus and have some money to throw, I'll visit one of the nice places.
Neecey said:
And I believe I've expressed that same logic so okay we're on the same page or no? I'm not really too apologetic about my position on this topic but I'm pretty much stating the same thing.
Voz said:
Save 65.00 and get a steak at Outback. 50.00 on food with a 10.00 tip. Everyone is happy
Neecey said:
Here, Here!
Voz said:
As I quoted before, "Tip on the level of service, not the level of your salary."
Neecey said:
Yeah, wish it were that easy but as some of us here know, it really isn't. And with everything that's been posted regarding the inconsistencies in not only customers tipping habits but with servers tip range expectations that theory isn't as easy to follow. Especially if you wish to return to a specific place. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 03:35 pm: |
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I agree with Voz and Teleburst with tipping according to the level of service. 15% should be respectable but if your server was providing excellent service, it would be a disservice to only tip 15%. The server would wonder, "I was only average?" It is to the customer's discretion , of course, but I don't think we should cut back if we know they did do an excellent job. Now, if your percentage was ranging from 20-25% and you slide back to the customary 15-20% in trying to trim the bill, then I don't see that as a problem when they are still getting what is appropriate. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 364
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 03:48 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I'm not banging down the door to your business demanding that you take a 12% pay cut
Neecey said:
Who's asking for that? I'm just expressing how generous practices are now reduced to pay the bill (including service) practices and being on my merry way. I'm just cutting out frivelous spending? In turn yes, servers will be getting less from me but they won't be getting stiffed either. I mean I'm making the point to go to more affordable place, going out less which is an adjustment for ME but I've decided to stop being an emotional tipper. That's what I'm saying, I'm trying to take out the emotional part of tipping which confuses matters. It's actually turned me into an over (an in turn an inappropriate) tipper. I'm just trying to correct that mentality. It is a business transaction after all now isn't it?
Teleburst said:
The accepted standard isn't "15% unless you don't have the money".
Neecey said:
I don't understand. What are you saying? Does that suggest tipping less than 15% because funds are low? If that's what you meant then you're arguing some other point. I've never factored anything less than 15% in my posts on this thread. My theory is about tipping appropriately while staying within the standard and acceptable ranges of 15-20%. I just wasn't sure what you were saying with that comment. It seems pretty straightforward but since no one suggested anything less than 15% it threw me off. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 365
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 03:50 pm: |
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Kris said:
Now, if your percentage was ranging from 20-25% and you slide back to the customary 15-20% in trying to trim the bill, then I don't see that as a problem when they are still getting what is appropriate.
Neecey said:
And that was the point I was getting at. Thanks Kris. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 03:51 pm: |
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My statement of 15% = average, weighs the same as someone else stating 20% = average on the internet. It's all he said, she said. With the vast amounts of information out there, it's going to get jumbled up and confusing.
Look, Just as a customer's perception weighs in on the amount of their tip; servers too have a perception on how much they 'should' have made when they gave the level of service they gave.
Since everyone's perception is different, we'll never come to a conclusion of the level of service should equal a level of percentage.
In other words, My average service I receive is another man's excellent service, is another man's poor service.
At the same time, the service given by one server could have been excellent, while another server would think it sucked.
15% for your average.
18% for your good.
20% for your excellent.
Service. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2699
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 04:20 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
The accepted standard isn't "15% unless you don't have the money".
Neecey said:
I don't understand. What are you saying? Does that suggest tipping less than 15% because funds are low? If that's what you meant then you're arguing some other point. I've never factored anything less than 15% in my posts on this thread. My theory is about tipping appropriately while staying within the standard and acceptable ranges of 15-20%. I just wasn't sure what you were saying with that comment. It seems pretty straightforward but since no one suggested anything less than 15% it threw me off".
Oh good grief. (and this is the end of the sarcasm).
I'm not sure I know what to say here. I think my statement stands exactly as written. What part of it do you not understand? (and I'm asking sincerely here, not sarcastically) Just to be clear, I'm saying that you shouldn't adjust your tip based on the state of your pocketbook because that's not part of the accepted and customary standard of tipping. The generally accepted standard doesn't say anything about "Tip 15% unless you can't afford it".
I'm saying that it's fine to tip less than 15% if you don't get good service. I'm saying that all of the questions that you are throwing at us obscure the issue, and, ironically, I think I agree with you but you just can't get your head around the fact that I might actually agree with you.
The state of your pocketbook shouldn't affect you tipping "appropriately". It might even mean that I don't see you but twice a year instead of twice a quarter. The state of your pocketbook can mean that you might cease being "overly generous", as long as you're meeting the customarily agreed with standard. In other words, if you're used to tipping 25% where 20% would be totally appropriate, tip 20% without any guilt. If you have a favorite server that you've been overtipping for a long time and you have decided that you can't do that anymore and it's really eating at you, simply say, "I'm sorry that I can't tip what I used to because of the economy. I hope you understand". If they are a server worth their salt and they value your long-term relationship, they should totally understand, as long as you're not tipping them 10% now. And any other server isn't going to know about your previous Mother Teresa ways, so it's not going to matter to them as long as you're tipping "appropriately".
And yes, I disagree with the servers that say you shouldn't be as generous as you have in the past, just as long as you're still within normal parameters. I even disagree with the customers who are saying that (and a lot of them *did* say that in the thread that you posted the link to). I think it's nice that they said it though. I'm grateful for the occasional 25% - 30% tips I get, but frankly, they aren't all that common. I am also grateful that I still seem to be getting the normal share of 20% tips. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 368
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 05:05 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I'm not sure I know what to say here. I think my statement stands exactly as written. What part of it do you not understand?
Neecey said:
Well the fact that you are referring to something that no one has suggested during this discussion sort of made you're post a bit unneccessary. I guess in general that's a fair point but it gave the impression that you felt the idea of lowering the standard was expressed here on this thread.
Teleburst said:
I think I agree with you but you just can't get your head around the fact that I might actually agree with you.
Neecey said:
Well that's because you agree with me by bringing up something that was never suggested during this coversation and started debating it as if tipping less that 15% to save a few bucks was something someone posted as an option. The thread revolves around generous tipping practices and scaling back not lowering the standard amounts.
Teleburst said:
Mother Teresa ways
Neecey said:
Really? I was under the impression that there are a good amount of emotional tippers out there and usually leave a fair to good tip regardless of service. Hmmmm Mother Teresa. Food for thought.
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 31, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2702
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 05:48 pm: |
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"Well the fact that you are referring to something that no one has suggested during this discussion sort of made you're post a bit unneccessary. I guess in general that's a fair point but it gave the impression that you felt the idea of lowering the standard was expressed here on this thread".
No, you specifically asked:
""So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed"?
That was my answer to that specific question. It's perfectly on point. The "standard" doesn't address the quality of your bank accont. It also doesn't say, "You should tip 30% if you are flush with extra money". Everyone's trying to game the system (even servers, it's true). I'm all for using common sense and a fair reading of the standard.
"Well that's because you agree with me by bringing up something that was never suggested during this coversation and started debating it as if tipping less that 15% to save a few bucks was something someone posted as an option".
Something similar was brought up by multiple posters on the thread that you posted the link to. You're quick to talk about all of the "if you can't afford to continue to be a generous tipper then stay home" sentiments that you attributed to servers on that thread but you ignore all of the, "Well, times are tough so I'm going to adjust my tipping habits" sentiments (many without any qualifications). I have no problem with that until a 15% tipper starts tipping 10% *only* because times are tight or if a guest starts only 15% regardless of the level of service (assuming that they know better). Once you remove the "levels of service" aspect, you're veering away from the standards.
"Really? I was under the impression that there are a good amount of emotional tippers out there and usually leave a fair to good tip regardless of service. Hmmmm Mother Teresa. Food for thought".
And, once again, I think that is counter-productive. Tipping should be an incentive and a reward for good service, not charity. I don't want charity. If you are so pleased that I made your night and you want to leave me 30%, then more power to you. If you can no longer leave 30% but still leave me 20%, that's perfectly fine with me. If you want to leave me 30% because you're sorry for me, sorry, I'm not interested. I would rather you leave me 20% (or 17% for that matter) because I want to be compensated for my service appropriately (that's one of the major ways that I know that I'm actually doing my job properly, assuming that I'm doing a better then average job, of course). That's all I'm asking. And frankly, that's all a server can ask. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 370
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 06:16 pm: |
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Teleburst referenced:
"So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed"?
Neecey said:
And you read that as lowering the tipping standard when the rest of the post clearly describes scaling back on generous tipping as long that the standards are still in place? That's how you misrepresent the message I put out there.
Teleburst said:
"Well, times are tough so I'm going to adjust my tipping habits" sentiments (many without any qualifications). I have no problem with that until a 15% tipper starts tipping 10% *only* because times are tight or if a guest starts only 15% regardless of the level of service (assuming that they know better). Once you remove the "levels of service" aspect, you're veering away from the standards.
Neecey said:
Okay so you were touching on posters from the link. Well it's good that you were clear about that although your posts seem to address my posts directly. Maybe it should be noted what opinion and who's opinion your disagreeing with since your posts sometimes loses direction. Just an observation.
Teleburst said:
That's all I'm asking. And frankly, that's all a server can ask.
Neecey said:
Well I wish that sentiment would rub off on more servers. I'm here to tell ya that that's a shrinking mentality now a days. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2705
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 07:56 pm: |
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"Teleburst referenced:
"So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed"?
Neecey said:
And you read that as lowering the tipping standard when the rest of the post clearly describes scaling back on generous tipping as long that the standards are still in place? That's how you misrepresent the message I put out there".
How does my answer "misrepresent" your message?
Once again, let's remind our studio audience what I was directly repsonding to:
"So I'm suffering like everyone else but I should still spend as though my income hasn't changed"?
"Okay so you were touching on posters from the link. Well it's good that you were clear about that although your posts seem to address my posts directly. Maybe it should be noted what opinion and who's opinion your disagreeing with since your posts sometimes loses direction. Just an observation"
Jeez - I already did that. From my very first post - directly answering your very first question:
"Personally, I think that if people aren't as generous because of the current economic climate, that's understandable. However, if they cut back on tipping past the point of what's reasonable (for instance, tipping 12% where they would have normally have tipped 15% for good service), then yes, I've got a bit of a problem with that. If they no longer tip 25% for great service and "only" tip 18 - 20% now, that's not a problem to me. If they stop leaving tips or leave what would normally be considered an "insult tip" just so that they can maintain their normal dining, then I have a serious problem with that. If they stop tipping on $40 bottles of wine (the next to cheapest bottle of merlot on the list), as someone recently did to me, yeah, I'm going to bitch about it afterwards. If someone starts tipping 12% on mediocre service instead of being generous and tipping 15%, fine with me. That's what they should be doing in the first place. I'm not looking for charity. I want to be compensated for my efforts appropriately.
Finally, if someone starts looking for the tiniest mistake in order to dock me when they would normally look at the whole experience and only do this simply because the economy is bad and they want to save some money so that they can get that extra glass of wine, this would make me uncomfortable"
I don't know how specific I can be.
Oh, wait. maybe I could say something like this:
"And it's perfectly fine to leave 15% for nothing more than average service".
I could go on and on and on and on but I think that you are doing the very thing that you are accusing *me* of and that's "misrepresenting" my position.
"Well I wish that sentiment would rub off on more servers. I'm here to tell ya that that's a shrinking mentality now a days".
According to you. But you only know what you read on the internet and what your only server friend demonstrates through their actions. No wonder you have such little faith in servers. If I took everything I read on the internet at face value, I'd think that customers were scum who only wanted a free ride. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 373
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 09:07 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
According to you. But you only know what you read on the internet and what your only server friend demonstrates through their actions.
Neecey said:
And the internet is just a figment of everyone's imagination right? Another knee slapping moment.
I only know? I know by my experiences in restaurants with actual real life servers. Why do you constantly ignore the part where personal experiences dining out DOES counts as knowledge. I don't get that and I find it weird. You are making less and less sense as you go on. As for the constant need to bring up my server friend, do you really think that helps your position or argument? It's pretty ridiculous that you keep bringing up such a trivial detail.
(Message edited by neecey93 on March 31, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2707
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 09:32 pm: |
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"I know by my experiences in restaurants with actual real life servers".
How many servers have told you (in real life that is) their ideas about how people should tip? About what they think about tipping in the face of financial crisis?
" As for the constant need to bring up my server friend, do you really think that helps your position or argument? It's pretty ridiculous that you keep bringing up such a trivial detail".
The fact that you think that this is trivial speaks volumes, especially when you presume to know how servers feel and think about the subjects that we are discussing here. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 11:43 am: |
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"And yes, I disagree with the servers that say you shouldn't be as generous as you have in the past, just as long as you're still within normal parameters. I even disagree with the customers who are saying that (and a lot of them *did* say that in the thread that you posted the link to). I think it's nice that they said it though. I'm grateful for the occasional 25% - 30% tips I get, but frankly, they aren't all that common. I am also grateful that I still seem to be getting the normal share of 20% tips."
Teleburst, can you explain this? It seems to contradict most of what you are saying. I read this as meaning, if you've always tipped generously and above customary guidelines, then you should stay at your usual, regardless of income changes. I'm a little confused and I don't know if I'm reading it correctly.
The server that Neecey had was described as a real b&*%$ and didn't actually wait on them. Maybe all she deserved was $2.83 plus 1 cent. Oh, lest you forget, she did tip the person who actually did wait on them.
(Message edited by kris on April 01, 2009) |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 375
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 12:34 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
How many servers have told you (in real life that is) their ideas about how people should tip? About what they think about tipping in the face of financial crisis?
But ignored this:
And the internet is just a figment of everyone's imagination right? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2709
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 03:19 pm: |
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""And yes, I disagree with the servers that say you shouldn't be as generous as you have in the past, just as long as you're still within normal parameters. I even disagree with the customers who are saying that (and a lot of them *did* say that in the thread that you posted the link to). I think it's nice that they said it though. I'm grateful for the occasional 25% - 30% tips I get, but frankly, they aren't all that common. I am also grateful that I still seem to be getting the normal share of 20% tips."
Teleburst, can you explain this"?
Certainly. If you've been overgenerous in the past, as long as you tip "appropriately", I think it's fine not to be as "generous" as you have in the past. If you used to leave 25 or 30% just because you could (for great service), it's perfectly fine to leave 18 - 20% now that times are tighter. If you used to leave 20% for any old service, 15% for just average service is fine. That's where I might disagree with some of my fellow servers <shrug>.
"Teleburst said:
How many servers have told you (in real life that is) their ideas about how people should tip? About what they think about tipping in the face of financial crisis?
But ignored this:
And the internet is just a figment of everyone's imagination right"?
So, should I suddenly say that customers are just full of opinions like a server "get a real job" or that most customers don't think that the job is a worthy one once someone gets out of college. Or that Obama is a Muslim? Or that tips stand for "to insure prompt service"?
Frankly, I haven't seen too many of these extreme positions from either servers *or* guests. And, having been on the net for close to twenty years now, I've learned that you take things with an extreme grain of salt.
You only see what you want to see anyway, so it's no wonder that you either discount opposing opinions or simply ignore them. You're the ultimate "cherry-picker".
But yes, the internet is often a "knee-slapper" all right. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 92
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 03:37 pm: |
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Thanks for clearing that up, Teleburst.
I think we're all pretty much in agreement here on that. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 376
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 06:37 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
So, should I suddenly say that customers are just full of opinions like a server "get a real job" or that most customers don't think that the job is a worthy one once someone gets out of college. Or that Obama is a Muslim? Or that tips stand for "to insure prompt service"?
Neecey said:
The internet has real people sharing real opinions all over the place including this site. I'm just pointing out that there's plenty of information out there extreme or not for someone to come to a pretty intelligent conclusion on any topic. I'm not saying you could bring an internet page to court or anything but to totally dismiss information found on the net as baseless? I don't agree. I mean that's how we find things like studies and research no? I'm sure people aren't running to the public library researching this topic before they post on a thread.
We are all in agreement like Kris said so there we have it.
Teleburst said:
discount opposing opinions
Neecey said:
Really? I argue oppossing opinions I don't discount them. I only discount negative posts that don't really contribute or helps the progression of a discussion. I feel that I've expressed my opinions rather openly. Those opinions usually fall within reasonable expectations with an air of holding people responsible for what they should be accomplishing when they report for work. I may not be as apologetic when expressing these views but they don't come from a hateful place.
Some understand that and some don't so there's nothing that can be done about that.
(Message edited by neecey93 on April 01, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2711
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 08:26 pm: |
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"I'm not saying you could bring an internet page to court or anything but to totally dismiss information found on the net as baseless? I don't agree".
I disagree as well, especially since I have done no such thing. I have said that you have to look at the whole picture, including the fact that there are some crackpots on the 'net. It's very easy to say outrageous things behind the cloak of anonynimity.
If I thought that customers were saying nothing than "baseless things", I wouldn't have put a blogger that had serious reservations about tipping first in a series of links. I wouldn't have put an article that generated hundreds of responses, many of them making points about tipping that I disagree with. I'm not like you, someone who cherrypicks only links that support my point of view.
"We are all in agreement like Kris said so there we have it".
And yet you seem out of sync in terms of how one normally tips for less than average service. You seem to struggle with it far more than the others. You don't seem to have worked out a reasonable method for figuring out how you're going to tip (and no, I'm not talking about your "special night" case). You don't even see how a 10% tip would be considered a very bad tip.
"I may not be as apologetic when expressing these views but they don't come from a hateful place".
It sure seems that way. When you discount someone's occupation as being "beneath you" because you're all grown up and you would never consider doing a "kid's job", it sure seems arrogant and dismissive and yes, more than just a little hateful. When most of what you say, from your very first post on, is mostly complaining about how bad servers are these days, there seems to be some hate going on.
But there's apparently nothing that can be done about that. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 378
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 02:30 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I have said that you have to look at the whole picture, including the fact that there are some crackpots on the 'net.
Neecey said:
Well of course that's a given. No need to explain how the internet is. There are crackpots as well as sincere people with opinions.
Teleburst said:
I'm not like you, someone who cherrypicks only links that support my point of view.
Neecey said:
So what? I'm not *balancing* my comments to include the server side. I've made it clear what my position is about servers who do their job and servers who don't. I don't need to keep reiterating how I understand the server side and that yeah, I know this that and the other revolving around a servers job... I don't need to post links as a show of good will, I mean honestly there seems to be so much required just to post an opinion on a board.
Neecey said:
"We are all in agreement like Kris said so there we have it".
Teleburst replied:
And yet you seem out of sync in terms of how one normally tips for less than average service. You seem to struggle with it far more than the others
Neecey said:
I made that comment regarding scaling back on generous tipping due to income changes while staying within the acceptable standard. You're comment isn't referring to that.
Teleburst said:
You don't even see how a 10% tip would be considered a very bad tip.
Neecey said:
I do see that it's considered a bad tip in theory and in some cases that's what I would end up leaving. My point is that sometimes the 10% calculation is sometimes still more than deserved. I'm not going to be constricted with a scale that I don't agree with. And as for worrying about it, I find that ridiculous as well because if you find yourself below the 15% mark than anything that's left regardless of what % it falls under should be considered a blessing. I'm pretty strict about doing your job and if you don't then expect me to pay for what you should've done, in MY eyes, not what a server believes is the bare minimum. Uh oh, there's my unapologetic side coming through.
Teleburst said:
When you discount someone's occupation as being "beneath you" because you're all grown up and you would never consider doing a "kid's job",
Neecey said:
Wait.. Is that a quote? I suspect not. You interpretted it the way you wanted to. As for kids job.. I work at the GAP. College students all around. Sometime all I do is work at the GAP when I'm between jobs. I've mentioned that before. I don't find it beneath me I find it convenient. I wouldn't be a server because NO for other reasons besides you thinking I considered it a kids job.
Teleburst said:
from your very first post on, is mostly complaining about how bad servers are these days, there seems to be some hate going on.
Neecey said:
Hating really? Being that my posts are about bad service and bad service are you suggesting that I be all full of love for the bad servers I've encountered? It's funny from *day one* you've tried to imply that I have something against all servers. I appreciate Voz's posts and think he's right on with most of the things he says. The times I don't agree I can at least debate points with him without it killing a thread.
Kris used to be a server and brings both sides to the table which is really helpful on these threads. Considering the opinions Kris has brought up here I'm surprised you haven't categorized him as *cooky* as well.
I'm not out to get the whole server population. It's weird that you don't get that part. I've mentioned it often enough. But can't make people see what they don't want to see.
(Message edited by neecey93 on April 02, 2009)
(Message edited by neecey93 on April 02, 2009) |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 03:08 pm: |
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I appreciate Voz's posts and think he's right on with most of the things he says.
Thank you Neecey, that was rather Neece of your to say....8p |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 379
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 03:22 pm: |
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Voz said:
Thank you Neecey, that was rather Neece of your to say....8p
Neecey said:
Hee, hee. Well I really appreciate being able to debate the other side with of course someone from the other side without it clouding over into some other sort of debate altogether. Even in threads where some posts may have gotten a little...well you know :-) we've managed to comment in a civil manner on new topics and threads with a healthy and fresh appetite for a debate. You've been able to validate some of my reactions to certain experiences without seeming hypocritical and I've been able to take away some solid insight from a lot of your posts. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2712
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 07:11 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
I'm not like you, someone who cherrypicks only links that support my point of view.
Neecey said:
So what"
And there you have it, in a nutshell. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2713
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 07:16 pm: |
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" Considering the opinions Kris has brought up here I'm surprised you haven't categorized him as *cooky* as well".
You might think about that a little. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 380
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 10:24 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
I have said that you have to look at the whole picture, including the fact that there are some crackpots on the 'net.
Neecey said:
Well of course that's a given. No need to explain how the internet is. There are crackpots as well as sincere people with opinions.
Teleburst said:
I'm not like you, someone who cherrypicks only links that support my point of view.
Neecey said:
So what? I'm not *balancing* my comments to include the server side. I've made it clear what my position is about servers who do their job and servers who don't. I don't need to keep reiterating how I understand the server side and that yeah, I know this that and the other revolving around a servers job... I don't need to post links as a show of good will, I mean honestly there seems to be so much required just to post an opinion on a board.
Neecey said:
"We are all in agreement like Kris said so there we have it".
Teleburst replied:
And yet you seem out of sync in terms of how one normally tips for less than average service. You seem to struggle with it far more than the others
Neecey said:
I made that comment regarding scaling back on generous tipping due to income changes while staying within the acceptable standard. You're comment isn't referring to that.
Teleburst said:
You don't even see how a 10% tip would be considered a very bad tip.
Neecey said:
I do see that it's considered a bad tip in theory and in some cases that's what I would end up leaving. My point is that sometimes the 10% calculation is sometimes still more than deserved. I'm not going to be constricted with a scale that I don't agree with. And as for worrying about it, I find that ridiculous as well because if you find yourself below the 15% mark than anything that's left regardless of what % it falls under should be considered a blessing. I'm pretty strict about doing your job and if you don't then expect me to pay for what you should've done, in MY eyes, not what a server believes is the bare minimum. Uh oh, there's my unapologetic side coming through.
Teleburst said:
When you discount someone's occupation as being "beneath you" because you're all grown up and you would never consider doing a "kid's job",
Neecey said:
Wait.. Is that a quote? I suspect not. You interpretted it the way you wanted to. As for kids job.. I work at the GAP. College students all around. Sometime all I do is work at the GAP when I'm between jobs. I've mentioned that before. I don't find it beneath me I find it convenient. I wouldn't be a server because NO for other reasons besides you thinking I considered it a kids job.
Teleburst said:
from your very first post on, is mostly complaining about how bad servers are these days, there seems to be some hate going on.
Neecey said:
Hating really? Being that my posts are about bad service and bad service are you suggesting that I be all full of love for the bad servers I've encountered? It's funny from *day one* you've tried to imply that I have something against all servers. I appreciate Voz's posts and think he's right on with most of the things he says. The times I don't agree I can at least debate points with him without it killing a thread.
Kris used to be a server and brings both sides to the table which is really helpful on these threads. Considering the opinions Kris has brought up here I'm surprised you haven't categorized him as *cooky* as well.
I'm not out to get the whole server population. It's weird that you don't get that part. I've mentioned it often enough. But can't make people see what they don't want to see. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 93
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 11:38 pm: |
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" Considering the opinions Kris has brought up here I'm surprised you haven't categorized him as *cooky* as well".
You might think about that a little."
No respect.
(By the way, I'm a her.)
Teleburst said:
"from your very first post on, is mostly complaining about how bad servers are these days, there seems to be some hate going on."
I think we've all gained a better understanding of NYC, haven't we? |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2714
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 08:24 am: |
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"I think we've all gained a better understanding of NYC, haven't we"?
Yes, and NYC'ers as well.
Doesn't seem like there's that much understanding coming from the other side. By admission, she's only here to take one side.
I will say this though - I'm sure glad not to have to work in a place where there's almost open warfare on the dining floor (according to all accounts here, that is - the Times blog seemed to me to show a slightly different outlook from both servers and guests). |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 381
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 02:30 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
By admission, she's only here to take one side.
Neecey said:
By admission? Misrepresenting posts again I see. I DEBATE one side I don't just TAKE one's side.
If you've ever seen or read up about competitive debating in schools you'll note that each team is ASSIGNED a position and must debate that side even if they don't believe in it. Like let's say abortion. One team will have to argue the Pro-Life side and the other team would have to debate the Pro-Choice REGARDLESS of personal beliefs. I don't ignore relevant information. When Voz posts informative routines and processes I'll debate the logic maybe or parts that I don't feel run as smoothly as they should. I'll also include my idea of what a good work ethic is and therefore what I should expect guiltfree. Now the key word DEBATE a side not take a side.
I don't really soak in much of what you post because it's done in a bullyish manner and it gets clouded up with unnecessary pettiness. But I do take to heart some of more eye opening toned posts of Kris and Voz. BTW sorry about the mix up Kris.
Now that that's cleared up I think the whole scaling back on generous tipping idea, within reason, has been covered thoroughly. Thanx for all the input. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2715
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 05:15 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
By admission, she's only here to take one side.
Neecey said:
By admission? Misrepresenting posts again I see. I DEBATE one side I don't just TAKE one's side".
I guess the concept of debate is foreign to you.
First of all, there's debate and there's DEBATE. If you want to equate it with organized debating, then one might say that you assigned yourself the side that you wanted to take.
But this isn't high school debating. This is debating the issues on an internet forum.
For you to declare that you don't "take a side" is one of the funniest things I've ever read here.
I'm glad that you have a different standard for my posts than you have for others. That's fine with me. But it sure does seem that you soak plenty of what I write. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 383
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 08:52 am: |
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Teleburs said:
one might say that you assigned yourself the side that you wanted to take.
Neecey said:
Point being that one can debate a side while still having an understanding of the other side. As well as having strong opinions that agree with the other side. Debating something doesn't necessarily means the need to completely disagree with the other side.
Teleburst said:
For you to declare that you don't "take a side" is one of the funniest things I've ever read here.
Neecey said:
Well if I can still go out to dine and manage to tip appropriately and generously then that means I'm not taking sides. You suggest that I have some iron fist non-forgiving position on tipping. Well wouldn't that mean that I'm punishing servers with every meal?
Teleburst said:
But this isn't high school debating. This is debating the issues on an internet forum
Neecey said:
Are you sure about that? Seems pretty high school when there are personal attacks and disrespect thrown around as some legimate way to debate a topic.
Basically, I don't like where the mentality of servers is going. I don't like what I've heard regarding what tipping allows restaurants to get away with. And I really don't like that the customers are getting more and more of this responsibilty laid in their lap (by guilt as well as unknowingly). Ignoring these distasteful parts of the system by trying to brush them off as not that serious or not that frequent is ignorant and simplistic. If we didn't question what some may say are minor details then we wouldn't have a lot of the labor laws we have now. People's opinions are relevant. A customer's opinion is relevant. Trying to suggesty why some opinions *just don't count* is an offessive argument as well as ridiculous. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:20 am: |
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And I really don't like that the customers are getting more and more of this responsibilty laid in their lap (by guilt as well as unknowingly).
I'm not following the ever increasing responsibilities. You either tip, or you don't tip. Of course, I'm referring to dining in with table side service.
I know you get information on what different service levels are, but to gather information on how you measure service is like gathering information to form an opinion. You can gain the knowledge, but your going to rely on your own perception.
Whether someone thinks your service sucked in that restaurant, if you feel it was average; then stick with the 15%. Just as a small example, you appreciate refills; however Lords does not. You'll tip 15% for this service (along with other things) but Lords will tip less.
It's the nature of the beast. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2716
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 02:04 pm: |
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"Are you sure about that? Seems pretty high school..."
That's all right - I forgive you for your high school mentality.
However, the one thing you missed in your fumbling attempt to equate internet on a forum with organized debate is the very thing that you ignore - your arguments have to be backed up with facts. Opinions and "feelings" don't cut it in organized debate unless they're back up with substantiation. You can't have it both ways. Either you want it to be a debate like you might have dreamed about participating in high school while all the time wondering why you were kicked out of the chess club, or you can just consider it a touchy-feely encounter session of no particular import. I suspect that in your case, it's simply a way to virtually kick your spaniel out of frustration without actually harming your pet. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 384
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 08:23 pm: |
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Voz said:
I'm not following the ever increasing responsibilities.
Neecey said:
Well because you see it as black and white. There have been plenty of posts that describe a lot of different details that are affecting the way people view tipping.
Some of the attitudes out there about tipping from servers and customers:
-20% is the new 15%
-Servers only make $2.13 so think about that before you judge too harshly.
-Post tax tipping
-Servers are pulled away from in house diners to prepare your to go therefore 10% is the right thing to do.
-Don't hold servers accountable for kitchen error, runner error, bar error or delay, busy night and crappy management.
-Have a heart, the server may be having a bad day or rude customers causing them to be off their game.
Now maybe that sounds overboard but that's the reality out there when dining out. It could be one or more of those attitudes in effect at any given time. There are servers out there that don't apply the above to their work ethic but there are plenty of servers who do. The general idea out there is to be less critical and more forgiving and understanding. Now of course that's a nice way to be however it makes it that much harder for a person to look out for their own interest without seeming harsh or petty. I don't know how else to explain that the current mentality is designed to cushion the server more than the customer as if servers need to be protected from the big bad world around them. Working at any profession is by choice. Sure there are customers who do if fact take advantage and treat their servers badly but that comes with every job. A rough day at work is not original. The ideas surrounding this profession makes it seem as if servers have no choice but to work at a "thankless" job therefore they deserve our understanding a little more than the cashier at the grocery store. That's an unfair imbalance.
When I go out and purchase services or products I expect a certain level of performance and quality but go out to eat with that same attitude about a servers performance and it can be viewed as petty and critical. Even from the people you are dining with. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2717
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 08:42 pm: |
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"When I go out and purchase services or products I expect a certain level of performance and quality but go out to eat with that same attitude about a servers performance and it can be viewed as petty and critical. Even from the people you are dining with".
Maybe that should tell you something. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 684
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:22 pm: |
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"Maybe that should tell you something." What it says is only one person has the balls to not except shoddy service. The others slinking in their chairs saying" I hope they wont get mad at me. They're looking at me they won't like me. I won't be able to come back here. Whaa, whaa, whaa. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 385
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:59 pm: |
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Teleburst said:
Maybe that should tell you something.
Neecey said:
Typical Teleburst response. The comment was a general one. And yeah, it tells me that you're just fine with people treating servers differently than they treat everyone else they come across in a professional situation. I'm not saying we should be able to rake servers across the coals. A lot of time tipping isn't the professional transaction it should be. The point that was made was a general one and that people expect a different attitude for what in all actuality IS a business transaction. The people who help me from one place to the next are all human beings so why should there be an imbalance of how I expect them to do their job? But of course you won't address it because some opinions just don't count or aren't really much of a concern. The research shows a million to one believe tipping is just a okay. Blah, blah, blah, Whatever. There's that dismissal of the customer position that's alive and well in your world.
It shouldn't matter how small the percentage is although it's pretty obvious that there's a good amount of opinions out there that believe the idea of tipping has gone to a disheartening place. Close your eyes to that population. Make believe it doesn't exist. Whatever gets you through the day.
(Message edited by neecey93 on April 06, 2009)
(Message edited by neecey93 on April 06, 2009) |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 253
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:16 pm: |
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"When I go out and purchase services or products I expect a certain level of performance and quality but go out to eat with that same attitude about a servers performance and it can be viewed as petty and critical. Even from the people you are dining with."
I understand exactly what you are saying. I have noticed that a lot of people are very hesitant to "make waves" or "cause a scene". I have noticed this with my own friends. I have been out to eat where a friend received a steak that was not cooked the way he ordered it. He complained to me about it, but told the waitress everything was fine because he didn't want to cause a fuss. I would have sent the steak back without a second thought. I have been out to dinner with a group of friends where we were served by a very rude waitress - yet they wanted to tip her (I refused) and they shook their heads when I asked to speak to a manager about her. No one argued that the waitress hadn't been rude - they just didn't want to say anything about it, saying they didn't want to get her in trouble. My feeling is that I didn't get her into trouble - her own behavior did that.
No one has accused me of being petty or critical, at least to my face. I don't sit at a table with a stop watch. I don't keep a spreadsheet of the mistakes a server has made so that I can save money on the tip. To be honest, anytime I go out and don't tip 15% or more is a disappointment because it means that I have received bad service and no one likes that. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 386
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:32 pm: |
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Kelly said:
To be honest, anytime I go out and don't tip 15% or more is a disappointment because it means that I have received bad service and no one likes that.
Neecey said:
Exactly. To be criticized about leaving less than 15% because of poor service by way of suggesting you were being too critical or demanding etc. etc. is ridiculous. That would mean that you went in to deliberatly cause a disappointing experience. That doesn't make sense and when I hear comment or arguments from servers suggesting that you should just sit back and relax instead of worrying about everything goes to show just how quick the need to sweep that sort of service under the rug is. Or to suggest that the perception of sub standard service is the result of an unrealistic expectation that the server of course couldn't achieve.
When most people go out to dine it's usually as a treat and usually to enjoy oneself. Why would people deliberatly sabotage their own experience by causing silly waves with their server? There are those that are just miserable but most often than not most people just want a pleasant experience. For some it means a more detailed meal with specific needs but that shouldn't be an issue or taken as someone not being able to just go with the flow. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2718
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:47 pm: |
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"Teleburst said:
Maybe that should tell you something.
Neecey said:
Typical Teleburst response".
Obviously it didn't tell you anything important. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
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"And yeah, it tells me that you're just fine with people treating servers differently than they treat everyone else they come across in a professional situation".
Wow, was *that* a leap. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2720
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:50 pm: |
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"But of course you won't address it because some opinions just don't count"
Like the friends who actually have the nerve to tell you what a prick you're being, right?
Their opinions don't count.
Right.
(Message edited by teleburst on April 06, 2009) |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2721
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:53 pm: |
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"It shouldn't matter how small the percentage is although it's pretty obvious that there's a good amount of opinions out there that believe the idea of tipping has gone to a disheartening place. Close your eyes to that population. Make believe it doesn't exist".
Nice revisionist history.
I believe it exists. I also believe that there are still people who believe that the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is flat.
I'd like you to quote me to support your blatant lie about my position. Go ahead. Make my day. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2722
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:56 pm: |
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"I understand exactly what you are saying. I have noticed that a lot of people are very hesitant to "make waves" or "cause a scene"."
Funny. I would think that someone willing to tell someone dining with them that their dining partner is being "petty and unreasonable" is, by definition, "causing a scene" or "making waves".
But that's just me, I guess. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2723
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 11:13 pm: |
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"I have been out to eat where a friend received a steak that was not cooked the way he ordered it. He complained to me about it, but told the waitress everything was fine because he didn't want to cause a fuss. I would have sent the steak back without a second thought. I have been out to dinner with a group of friends where we were served by a very rude waitress - yet they wanted to tip her (I refused) and they shook their heads when I asked to speak to a manager about her. No one argued that the waitress hadn't been rude - they just didn't want to say anything about it, saying they didn't want to get her in trouble. My feeling is that I didn't get her into trouble - her own behavior did that".
What does that have to do with Neecey's claim that her own friends have called her out on "petty and critical behavior"?
*Of course* you should tip less for less than average performance. Have you not been paying attention?
" No one has accused me of being petty or critical, at least to my face".
Yes, and I'll bet that Neecey's comment about it being a "general comment" meant that she was just making it up, that it's never really actually happened to her.
We can all make up stuff that *could* conceivably happen. I could make up plenty of stuff about guests but, actually, I don't have to because the stuff actually happens. People go from "don't rush me" to "where's my lobster"? People complain that their well done steak is taking too long even though they didn't get a first course and it's only been 10 minutes. People claim that they ordered their steak medium rare when they actually said medium and it was said back to them, and the delusion spreads to the person to their left who says, "Yes, that's what they said - I heard them" because everyone has to "save face". But I could go the extra "Neecey mile" and talk about how some pissed off guest slit my tires or tried to get me fired because I rolled my eyes at them or got mad that someone next to them was wearing a baseball cap indoors and actually called to complain about it (oh wait, that last one actually happened).
"When most people go out to dine it's usually as a treat and usually to enjoy oneself. Why would people deliberatly sabotage their own experience by causing silly waves with their server"?
For the same reason that they expect the worst when they go in maybe?Kind of like you?
"For some it means a more detailed meal with specific needs but that shouldn't be an issue or taken as someone not being able to just go with the flow".
<shrug> Going with the flow seems to work. But that doesn't mean that one can't recognize poor service when it happens despite "going with the flow". I noted one such case not too long ago. But that was in another thread so I guess that doesn't count.
Go in half expecting to get bad service and I'll bet that you have a much greater chance of getting it. Makes perfect sense to me. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 254
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:19 am: |
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What does that have to do with Neecey's claim that her own friends have called her out on "petty and critical behavior"?
I was pointing out my own experiences that although almost everyone agrees in theory that poor service shouldn't be tipped well (or possibly at all), and that is appropriate to complain to management - that isn't what always happens in reality. There are people who will not complain - even when they have every right to do so. I have had friends who didn't think I should complain about service - even when they agreed the service itself was poor. There are people that seem to think that complaining is wrong - regardless of the merit of the complaint itself. And that is the the person doing the complaining that is somehow in the wrong.
Is this the attitude that neecey is encountering? Since I don't know her or her friends, I can't say one way or the other. But based upon my personal experience I would have to say that it is a possibility.
*Of course* you should tip less for less than average performance. Have you not been paying attention?
I agree.
For the same reason that they expect the worst when they go in maybe?Kind of like you?
Why would someone go out if the expect to have a bad experience? Why would you spend money to go out if you don't expect to enjoy yourself? It's a lot cheaper to have a lousy time at home. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 685
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 05:40 am: |
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teleburst you.re rambling. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:11 am: |
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You know, what Teleburst said does have some merit on what we sense when we go out to eat.
Ever go to a restaurant and the place is packed? Things that come to your head; This is going to take a long time, service is going to be iffy, food will probably not be correct, etc. Waiting 10 minutes to be sat feels like an hour, Server quickly goes over the specials and darts off after taking your drink order is considered rude, and the food you receive doesn't look as good as the food you had last week when the place was slow.
Before walking into the restaurant, we're already giving a bad rating based on past experiences.
Just as most people who continue to have poor service on average, expect the service to be poor the next time they go out to eat. Suddenly the little things like refilling drinks, visits to the table, and missing idle chat from the server become huge impacts on your perception of that server.
My mentality falls in this format, as most people are probably doing:
- Hungry and want to eat at a particular place.
- Drive up to restaurant: How many cars? Does it look busy?
- Walk in door. Is it busy? Is the hostess nice and greets me nicely?
- Get a table, or have to wait for one?
- Table location, near the kitchen, near the front door with cold air blasting in from outside when customers walk in?
- Server greet. Fast, slow, took a long time to get one? Was she/he nice? Professional or a teenage kid using ghetto slang?
- Timing of drinks and apps.
- Quality of drinks and apps.
- Timing of entrees.
- Quality of entress and server asking if everything is fine. Refilling drinks.
- Table cleared when done.
- Dessert or coffee. Did the server offer, or assume we were done.
- Check presented and paid in timely manner.
- Good bye and I walk out of restaurant.
Any break downs in the system will leave a sour taste in your mouth, even if the server is not responsible for your wait time, or the quality of the food.
Where am I going with this? Who knows. Now I am the one rambling. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 387
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 10:03 am: |
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Teleburst said:
What does that have to do with Neecey's claim that her own friends have called her out on "petty and critical behavior"?
Neecey said:
Typical. So yes,now I'm going to claim it never happened to me. Funny you should throw the fact that it may not have actually happened to me. That means you obviously knew where I was coming from with my point but chose not to validate it. Wonder how you knew what I meant if it's a completely made up scenario.
Teleburst said:
Like the friends who actually have the nerve to tell you what a prick you're being, right?
Neecey said:
So that's your logical response by purposely misunderstanding my post and commenting that my friends are trying to tell me something. Honey, my friends have never criticized my tipping except maybe to tell me to deduct for XYZ. I come to my conclusion with help from this very site. Remember how heated the discussion got on the "not everyone can afford to tip" thread? Alot came out on that board about how people react to dining companions tipping habits. That thread was about not tipping enough but it still focused on customer perceptions regarding how one another tips.
Teleburst said:
Yes, and I'll bet that Neecey's comment about it being a "general comment" meant that she was just making it up, that it's never really actually happened to her.
Neecey said:
Yep, you guess it, it never has happened to me. It was a pretty easy conclusion to come to without it ever happening to me. And guess what!! It prompt Kelly to share an example of it happening to him/her. SHOCKER! I guess I really wasn't just randomly making stuff up. This board is made up of only so many people and the fact that my *made up* example can quickly be confirmed by a fellow posters with an actual example goes to show what the odds are of that actually happening on a consistant basis. Go ahead and keep 'em closed.
Teleburst said:
I could make up plenty of stuff about guests but, actually, I don't have to because the stuff actually happens. People go from "don't rush me" to "where's my lobster"? People complain that their well done steak is taking too long even though they didn't get a first course and it's only been 10 minutes. People claim that they ordered their steak medium rare when they actually said medium and it was said back to them, and the delusion spreads to the person to their left who says, "Yes, that's what they said - I heard them" because everyone has to "save face". But I could go the extra "Neecey mile" and talk about how some pissed off guest slit my tires or tried to get me fired because I rolled my eyes at them or got mad that someone next to them was wearing a baseball cap indoors and actually called to complain about it (oh wait, that last one actually happened).
Neecey said:
You just confirmed what I said when I posted:
"To be criticized about leaving less than 15% because of poor service by way of suggesting you were being too critical or demanding etc. etc. is ridiculous. That would mean that you went in to deliberatly cause a disappointing experience. That doesn't make sense and when I hear comment or arguments from servers suggesting that you should just sit back and relax instead of worrying about everything goes to show just how quick the need to sweep that sort of service under the rug is. Or to suggest that the perception of sub standard service is the result of an unrealistic expectation that the server of course couldn't achieve."
Your examples of unreasonable guests is just what I meant with my posts. Yeah, Right! I couldn't have been talking about servers who feel too many details at one table constitutes as demanding guests.
It's funny how you take a post about lacking service and try to cloud it with examples of unreasonable customers. As if to say that any critical post about a server is most likely related to the fact that the customer was the one who created the sub standard service in their own mind. You do this every time. Do you even believe that there a bad servers out? You know servers that don't do their job properly? I doubt it.
Teleburst said:
I believe it exists. I also believe that there are still people who believe that the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is flat.
Neecey said:
So basically you admit that you recognize that there are people out there that don't like the tipping system but you hold their opinions in the same regard as people who still believe the world is flat? In other words these opinions don't count or are really not worth anyone's consideration because these opinions are fruitless and ridiculous? Well okay, interesting position to have. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 11:07 am: |
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Do you even believe that there a bad servers out? You know servers that don't do their job properly? I doubt it.
I know there are bad servers out there. Amazing to me that some of them can even keep their job. But that all has something to do with the restaurant and the type of clientel. Trust me, places where people are rude, your servers in that area are probably rude, too.
Some will shine, though. And if the money is good, the good servers will catch wind and attempt to do everything in their power to work for that place.
The liking or not liking tipping is all based on opinion. Facts are that most people benefit from the system today, compared to a system used overseas. It's built that way, goverment sees it that way, and servers are used to it that way.
But, we've all discussed that to the death. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 389
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:11 pm: |
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Voz said:
I know there are bad servers out there
Neecey said:
And I know there are good one's out there. Actual points and observations get overlooked because the debate somehow goes back to petty details that aren't really the issue. Are there miserable customers out there? Of course. Are there miserable servers out there? Of course. Let's not confuse reasonable customers with unreasonable customers and good servers with inept ones.
Let's stick to the examples given and opinions about XYZ happening instead of pretending that certain situations don't happen or suggest that criticizing an experience only comes from neurotic customers that have nothing better to do than nit pick. I mean isn't it interesting to see what all sides think instead of halting an interesting conversation path with posts that have already been addressed time and time again? |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 02:09 pm: |
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Some of the attitudes out there about tipping from servers and customers:
-20% is the new 15%
Wrong. 15% is average in most material out there; online and printed. Now the mentality of a server who thinks he/she should get 20% is the one who IS performing excellent service and some customers don't see it as such. As I've stated in the past; "One man's poor service, is another man's excellent service."
-Servers only make $2.13 so think about that before you judge too harshly.
This is not a concern the customer should worry about. If the service was below average, tip below average. Your good servers will recognize their mistake, while the poor servers will grow tired and leave. (That would be a good thing)
-Post tax tipping
As Teleburst and I have stated, a majority of people are tipping on the total amount. If they choose to tip on the sub-total, the difference is anywhere from .50 - 10.00. It's not huge and not much of a difference to notice it.
-Servers are pulled away from in house diners to prepare your to go therefore 10% is the right thing to do.
Again, it's unknown and with so many different restaurants putting the responsibility on different people, how is a customer suppose to know. I do what I do, you do what you do. It's a free world.
-Don't hold servers accountable for kitchen error, runner error, bar error or delay, busy night and crappy management.
This, I would hope the customer would take into account, but it doesn't happen all the time. I've seen people tip lower when the steaks come out overcooked. I didn't cook them and I wrote it down, as the customer stated. Why should I be at fault? Managers would usually pay the tab if it's a big issue for the customer. Other issues usually are based on the restaurant's business. If the place is packed, your not going to get timely service, but you should still get quality service. If this is met, tipping average is fine with me.
-Have a heart, the server may be having a bad day or rude customers causing them to be off their game.
Unacceptable. You don't bring personal issues to work. If the issues will cause problems at work, the manager should let them have the night off, and as the old saying goes, if they can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
We get rude customers, we get customers who have a chip on their shoulder. We also get customers who are pleasant, having a great time and appreciate the time we took to meet their needs. It all balances out. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2724
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 02:51 pm: |
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"For the same reason that they expect the worst when they go in maybe?Kind of like you?
Why would someone go out if the expect to have a bad experience? Why would you spend money to go out if you don't expect to enjoy yourself"?
That's what I keep asking myself. I know that if I only had a 50/50 chance of getting good service, like Neecey claims, I probably wouldn't go out to eat very often at all. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2725
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 02:59 pm: |
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"So basically you admit that you recognize that there are people out there that don't like the tipping system but you hold their opinions in the same regard as people who still believe the world is flat? In other words these opinions don't count or are really not worth anyone's consideration because these opinions are fruitless and ridiculous? Well okay, interesting position to have".
Nope. You got it wrong. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 391
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 03:06 pm: |
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Voz said: (responding to 20% is the new 15%)
Wrong. 15% is average in most material out there; online and printed
Neecey said:
Of course it's wrong but that doesn't stop the slowly but surely growing population of misguided people. I'm including guests in that equation.
Voz said: (responding to the $2.13 wage detail)
This is not a concern the customer should worry about.
Neecey said:
But it's pointed out enough to influence the overall picture. Like it or not it's used as a cushioning tool. I never said only servers use this I'm saying that customers point this fact out as some justification for rewarding mediocre or sub standard service.
Voz said: (responding to post tax tipping)
As Teleburst and I have stated, a majority of people are tipping on the total amount. If they choose to tip on the sub-total, the difference is anywhere from .50 - 10.00. It's not huge and not much of a difference to notice it.
Neecey said:
I'm pointing out what customers aren't sure about. Maybe it amounts to little but that point was included in the list of customer responsibilities. You know the appropriate way to calculate a tip. This is one of those unclear things. Pre tax was acceptable in the past but then again so was 10%.
Voz said: (reponding to 10% on take out)
Again, it's unknown and with so many different restaurants putting the responsibility on different people, how is a customer suppose to know. I do what I do, you do what you do. It's a free world.
Neecey said:
And I agree with that sentiment and your reasoning behind it 100%
Voz said: (response to don't hold servers accountable etc...)
This, I would hope the customer would take into account, but it doesn't happen all the time.
Neecey said:
Not that I would suggest not being understanding I'm just saying that there's a partnership between a server and a guest. Tolerance is expected from both sides especially if there's a list of details a server doesn't feel should affect their tip.
Voz said: (reponse to have a heart...)
Unacceptable. You don't bring personal issues to work. If the issues will cause problems at work, the manager should let them have the night off, and as the old saying goes, if they can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Neecey said:
Couldn't agree more. Like I said, you'll have companions like Kelly pointed out that feel holding a server accountable is somehow petty and meanspirited. When I make examples I also consider non servers who think being a server is something worthy of extra consideration. Consideration for any working employee is not a problem but the *extra* consideration is what I have a problem with. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 03:59 pm: |
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Neecey said:
But it's pointed out enough to influence the overall picture. Like it or not it's used as a cushioning tool. I never said only servers use this I'm saying that customers point this fact out as some justification for rewarding mediocre or sub standard service.
But in most cases, we're discussing the customers who don't tip if the service was great. Some customers don't tip anything on a regular basis. It would be the statement of the server making 2.13 an hour for those people, not for the people who are tipping on average.
That 15% tip is being paid for a service rendered. If the service was poor or lacking, so should the tip.
Neecey said:
I'm pointing out what customers aren't sure about. Maybe it amounts to little but that point was included in the list of customer responsibilities. You know the appropriate way to calculate a tip.
15% is appropriate. Whether its before or after tax, it's up to the guest. 125.00 check with a tip after tax results in 20.34. Same check with tip before tax results in 18.75. 1.59 difference. Almost roughly 1% impact on tipping before tax, instead of after. This becomes big when the amounts are very large, but in those cases, it's usually an auto-grat. Oh, auto-grats are before tax. So there is your answer.
This is one of those unclear things. Pre tax was acceptable in the past but then again so was 10%.
Not in my lifetime. It's been pretty steady on the 15% number. If it used to be 10%, I wonder how the public started making it 15%? Traveling through time to the future, would I see 500 years from now, servers getting 240%? I doubt it. *shrug*
10% - That's a history debate. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 393
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:04 pm: |
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Voz said:
Not in my lifetime. It's been pretty steady on the 15% number. If it used to be 10%, I wonder how the public started making it 15%?
Neecey said:
With the same logic they used to get it to 15%. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 686
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 10:23 pm: |
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Quit crying about that $2.13 that servers make. Get a different job. Servers know what they were going to make. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 255
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
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Voz,
You do have a point. What kind of mood I am in definitely affects how much I enjoy an evening, and waiting for 30 minutes for a table isn't known to put me in a great mood. I do typically assume that my order is going to take longer (and I am usually right on that), though I haven't noticed that people get my order wrong more than usual.
What I am not sure of is whether or not that would affect how I tip. For me to tip less than 15% - something actually has to go wrong. I do not penalize the server because it takes a long time for my food to come. But would I be more irked because my drinks are not being refilled in a timely manner after waiting for table than if I had been seated immediately? I don't know, but it is definitely a possibility. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 256
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 12:27 am: |
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-Don't hold servers accountable for kitchen error, runner error, bar error or delay, busy night and crappy management.
What should a server be accountable for?
I typically only hold a server accountable for visible food or bar errors. I mean visible literally - if you could see the error by glancing down at the plate/glass. If I ordered a clear drink and I get handed one that is blue - that is a mistake I hold against the server. If I ordered fries and someone puts a plate in front me with a baked potato, that is a mistake I blame on the server. Now if my steak is not cooked properly - that I wouldn't hold against a server since you can't typically tell that without cutting into the steak (assuming I didn't order rare and get well-done).
I do hold servers accountable for errors committed by food runners. Just because a server has delegated the job to someone else, doesn't mean that they aren't still accountable for the job being done properly. That's just like at where I work - if I delegate part of a project to someone else, I am still responsible for the overall quality of the project. It doesn't matter if the mistake was mine or someone elses.
As for busy night, as a customer I can tell how many tables people are sitting at but that doesn't tell me if my server is working more tables than usual. I judge simply on the service I receive. If I am not receiving good service it really doesn't matter to me why - I'm not going to pretend I've received good service when I haven't.
The last one was crappy management. As a customer I rarely interact with management unless I have a problem with the server. So how would I even know if there was crappy management? |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 687
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 07:22 am: |
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Look servers you can't have it both ways. If you serve me, it's called Getting It Right". If I order medium steak and it comes out rare or well done it should never reach my table. Your working for me. If the sides are wrong they should never reach my table. If your just going to take the order and drop the bill your not worth 15-20%. Don't blame the food runner or the drink server. You see to it that it's right. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1210
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 08:13 am: |
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As the scale of the restaurant gets higher, the responsibility of the server also increases. I seriously doubt people who eat at French Laundry as EVER gotten a wrong entree or has been poured the wrong wine. It's a dedicated communication between the front of the house and the back along with managers, matre d', etc.
Now Chili's, guess what? Your going to get the occasional mishap of the foodrunner brining out the wrong food, or the server being swamped with drink orders from 3 different tables. I'm not defending poor service, but in a hustle and bustle type of atmosphere, there are bound to be mistakes.
Want to tip 10% because you waiting longer on a steak that was overcooked, by all means; go ahead. Your experience was diminished and if the only recourse is to take it out on the server, that's your choice.
My choice would be to discuss with the manager. Not only are you going to be given a new steak, but based on the time it takes, he may comp it off. Free Meal, baby.
So yeah Paid-up, pay for your steak, stiff the server and walk out feeling all high and mighty; or talk with a manager, get a free steak and tip the server. Everyone is happy. Oh, sorry. Forgot, it's all about you, isn't it?
Kelly, I agree with the statement on servers being responsible. Food runners can't be relied on 100%, but they are there to keep the food from 'dying' in the window. You probably don't want cold food either, unless it's a salad.
So the server is to do a quality check when the food comes out. Server can immediately fix it if the food runner brought a burger out instead of the chicken sandwich you ordered.
I think I've said this in the past; don't tip below average because of mistakes, tip based on the service. If the server fixes those mistake quickly with upbeat personality and stays in constant communication with managers when a mistake happens, they should be tipped average.
Now if the server is blatenly making mistakes; taking an order without writing it down, not checking on you, not refilling drinks, getting your order wrong (Usually you can tell the difference between wrong thing brought and wrong thing ordered), being rude or short because they are busy, etc. This would mostly result in a very low tip. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 257
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 11:29 am: |
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</i>Now Chili's, guess what? Your going to get the occasional mishap of the foodrunner brining out the wrong food, or the server being swamped with drink orders from 3 different tables. I'm not defending poor service, but in a hustle and bustle type of atmosphere, there are bound to be mistakes. </i>
I agree that while I have had the wrong order served to me an at a Chili's type establishment, that has never happened to me at more high-end restaurants. But when it does happen at Chilis it is poor service, and I will tip accordingly.
Want to tip 10% because you waiting longer on a steak that was overcooked, by all means; go ahead. Your experience was diminished and if the only recourse is to take it out on the server, that's your choice.
I believe I that I stated that I only hold a server accountable for visible errors. A steak that was over-cooked and therefore had to be sent back would not be the fault of a server and I wouldn't hold it against him when tipping. I would complain to management if I thought it was appropriate. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 396
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 12:58 pm: |
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Kelly said:
The last one was crappy management. As a customer I rarely interact with management unless I have a problem with the server. So how would I even know if there was crappy management?
Neecey said:
The fact that the manager doesn't seem interested in salvaging the below standard experience. This is after the meal deciding to get a manager involved about details that aren't directly the fault of the server but should be addressed none the less. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 01:38 pm: |
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I believe I that I stated that I only hold a server accountable for visible errors. A steak that was over-cooked and therefore had to be sent back would not be the fault of a server and I wouldn't hold it against him when tipping.
That was directed more towards Paid-up who states it's the server's job to check the steak before it comes out. Hope he doesn't mind me cutting into the steak before it comes to the table since it's my job to check it out. Maybe I should taste it, too.
Wrong order is circumstance. Since so many factors can effect the ability of the server getting to the mistake before it happens, your tipping habit should be based on a yes/no factor, leaning toward yes if the server fixes the problem quickly. Let me give an example:
Let’s say the burger comes out with all the toppings, but you asked for plain. Food runner runs off before you notice it.
How would you tip the server on three different situations?
1 - Server is at the host stand chatting it up with the hostess. Flirting with the hostess, he is completely ignoring your table. You’re stuck having to waive him or someone down.
2 - Server is at another table taking an order. Group of people with questions and the server cannot get away from the table to check on your food. You’re forced to waive someone else down.
3 - Server quickly follows the runner and catches the problem. "Kitchen sent the wrong item out. Your's is still on the grill," he says. He takes your item away and comes back 2 minutes later with a hot plain burger.
In all three situations, the order came out wrong, but are you going to tip the same for all three situations? |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 689
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 02:48 pm: |
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"So yeah Paid-up, pay for your steak, stiff the server and walk out feeling all high and mighty; or talk with a manager, get a free steak and tip the server. Everyone is happy. Oh, sorry. Forgot, it's all about you, isn't it?" Isn't that what is all about, making the customer happy? Stiffing the server, just how am I doing that? |
dandmb50
New member
Username: dandmb50
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 04:25 pm: |
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It use to be 10% then 15% tip and now they want 20%?? So in 100 years will they want 70%? I don't get it. I have always given a tip based on the service I receive and always will. If your boss is not paying you enough then ask for a raise. If you want a good tip, then give good service. But don't be annoying. I use to go to a restaurant near my home and I got this guy who was terrible, so I left him 50 cents. I did it a couple of times, then I got a good waiter the next time and left him $7.00. I'm sure the bad waiter told my new waiter that I was a cheap skate. But it has nothing to do with that. Good service, good tip at least from me.
Daniel ..................... Daniel |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 402
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 04:52 pm: |
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Dandmb50 said:
It use to be 10% then 15% tip and now they want 20%??
Neecey said:
Some want 20% not all. Just thought I'd mention that before you get slammed for having the "facts" wrong.... |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2733
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 06:58 pm: |
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" I have always given a tip based on the service I receive and always will".
"Good service, good tip at least from me".
Sounds like a plan to me.
Why people even care what a bad server thinks about them leaving a bad tip is beyond me. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 260
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 09:34 pm: |
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How would you tip the server on three different situations?
1 - Server is at the host stand chatting it up with the hostess. Flirting with the hostess, he is completely ignoring your table. You’re stuck having to waive him or someone down.
2 - Server is at another table taking an order. Group of people with questions and the server cannot get away from the table to check on your food. You’re forced to waive someone else down.
3 - Server quickly follows the runner and catches the problem. "Kitchen sent the wrong item out. Your's is still on the grill," he says. He takes your item away and comes back 2 minutes later with a hot plain burger.
In all three situations, the order came out wrong, but are you going to tip the same for all three situations?
Situation 1 & 2 - I would dock the tip - though more in scenario 1 than scenario 2. If I am waving someone down to take care of a problem - then to me that is poor service. However, I typically wait a couple of minutes for the server to check on me before I start waving down someone. But if the server is stuck at another table longer than I am willing to wait and I have to flag down someone else (the scenario you laid out), I would dock the tip.
Situation 3 - I would not dock the tip if it really was resolved that quickly.
Any mistake that is rectified quickly I basically just ignore when tipping.
A scenario that I have encountered though is that I ordered a plain burger, a deluxe burger with disgusting mayo is served to me at the same time as my friends receive their meal. A server does come check on me in a timely manner, and I send the burger back. But a new one has to be cooked so I end up sitting there twiddling my thumbs while my friends eat. I finally get my meal just as they finishing up, and I get to eat while they are waiting for me to finish so that we can leave. In this scenario - I am inconvenienced and I will dock the tip.
(Message edited by kelly on April 09, 2009) |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1217
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 08:21 am: |
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I finally get my meal just as they finishing up, and I get to eat while they are waiting for me to finish so that we can leave. In this scenario - I am inconvenienced and I will dock the tip.
And in most cases, this is understandable and servers do feel bad when it happens. To give you an idea on what goes behind closed doors; your example above, the server is upset with the kitchen and the chef. Heated discussions with the servers and cooks have been made in the past that would make you think twice about docking the server.
I've had a situation happen where the entree was not even cooked for one of the guests. Three entrees came out; food runner ran it, looked at the table of four and said, "Here you go, your other entree is on the way." Came back to the kitchen and the cooks missed the item. Didn't even cook it. I went off. Son of a .... "How could you have missed it?! Why did the food runner run it?!"
We had to buy the meal. I still got an average tip, but in no way was that my fault and in your discription, I would have been docked for it. Cook is still making his 12.00 an hour. Food Runner is still getting his tip out. But me? Nah, my income is lower because of kitchen failure to deliver the product.
If I were in your senerio, I would have asked the server,"What happened? Why did it come out wrong?"
A good server would apologize, maybe tell you it was the kitchen's fault and get a manager. Manager would come to the table and apologize and probably comp the item. You get the food for free because of your inconvenience and you tip the server average for the delightful service she gave. |
ohioborn
Member
Username: ohioborn
Post Number: 134
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 12:02 pm: |
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Well..another way to look at it...any smart server would always blame the kitchen for any mistake, and there is no way for the customer to really know then if the kitchen messed it up, or if the server messed it up. I would give the server the opportunity to make things right...if that did not happen, I would reduce the tip. The server is the customer's gatekeeper to the kitchen, and I leave it in the server's hands to make the dining experience right. The next option would be to take it to the manager if the server can not make it right. |
neecey93
Intermediate Member
Username: neecey93
Post Number: 403
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 12:32 pm: |
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Ohioborn said:
The server is the customer's gatekeeper to the kitchen, and I leave it in the server's hands to make the dining experience right.
Neecey said:
The other reasoning that I always try to point out is the fact that the server is the one the assumes these risks. I mean hey, I feel for the server and it is kitchen error but as Kelly said the exeperience provided wasn't worth the standard tip. Same with the server who is stuck with a busy table. But again the service provided isn't up to the standard tip. As a server you are the one who should take hits for the restaurant.
Who pays full price for a product that's lacking? I mean why would I pay $16.50 for a shirt that has a stain on it? I mean yeah the shirt will still fit the same and function the same but being clean is something that is included in the price. If someone decides they want it anyway (last one maybe) then they would usually expect some sort of reduction at the register.
I'm just pointing out the business part of the transaction. |
kris
Junior Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 12:54 pm: |
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"If someone decides they want it anyway (last one maybe) then they would usually expect some sort of reduction at the register."
And that is where you would get your free or discounted meal, maybe even a free dessert. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1218
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 07:17 am: |
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And that is where you would get your free or discounted meal, maybe even a free dessert.
Exactly.
The point being is this. In a crazy busy type of place, the server can't be everywhere at the same time. It's in the hopes that food comes out right and your co-workers are helping you out during the crunch. A good server will make sure to check on their customers to make sure things are as they ordered them. It seems most people on the board are forgiving to those who fix the problem quickly. Rock on.
In the more upscale places, this happens rarely. On the occasional over cooked item, only the strange requests of modifications does it come out with delay or incorrect.
Just as taking risks on even getting a tip, it's not news on us taking a hit when things aren't coming out smoothly. Sucks, but that the beast.
My suggestion would be to push for the discount on the food, rather than taking the discount on the server's tip. If the service was average and food mistakes occured, tip on the discounted amount. If the service was excellent and the server did everything they could to make it pleasant, tip on the pre-discounted amount. |
kelly
Intermediate Member
Username: kelly
Post Number: 265
Registered: 05-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 12:36 am: |
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If I were in your senerio, I would have asked the server,"What happened? Why did it come out wrong?"
Two things. First, maybe I am getting cynical but my experience is that people won't take responsibility for an error if there is an easy, credible way for them to avoid it. Since a customer is very unlikely to walk into a restaurant kitchen and say "the server says my meal is wrong because you made a mistake - is that really what happened?" - my guess is that many servers would blame it on the kitchen regardless. If you assume that some people would reduce the tip if the error was the servers', but not if the blame fell to the kitchen there is very little incentive other than inherent honesty to tell the truth.
Second, a big part of the problem with my meal was not just that the kitchen cooked it incorrectly (or didn't cook it at all, in the case of your example) - but that the mistake reached my table. Whether it is the server or food runner doesn't matter. If the error had been caught before the food hit the table, it wouldn't have been an issue. There are certain criteria that makes up "average" service - and getting what you actually ordered and getting it with the rest of your table are part of it.
I do need to clarify something though. As I have said before, I don't think that servers should be docked for problems with food that couldn't been seen by glancing at the plate - such as meat not being cooked to order. So for the purpose of plain burger/mayo burger example, I am assuming that the error is plainly visible to anyone that would be looking.
A good server would apologize, maybe tell you it was the kitchen's fault and get a manager. Manager would come to the table and apologize and probably comp the item. You get the food for free because of your inconvenience and you tip the server average for the delightful service she gave.
An apology is good. Free food would go a long way toward convincing me that this was an aberration and not the standard way this restaurant operates. Assuming it was handled well, I would probably give this restaurant another try. However, that still wouldn't change the fact that I didn't receive "delightful" or even average service - and I would tip accordingly. |
dandmb50
New member
Username: dandmb50
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 09:21 am: |
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"It use to be 10% then 15% tip and now they want 20%?? So in 100 years will they want 70%? I don't get it. I have always given a tip based on the service I receive and always will. If your boss is not paying you enough then ask for a raise. If you want a good tip, then give good service. But don't be annoying. I use to go to a restaurant near my home and I got this guy who was terrible, so I left him 50 cents. I did it a couple of times, then I got a good waiter the next time and left him $7.00. I'm sure the bad waiter told my new waiter that I was a cheap skate. But it has nothing to do with that. Good service, good tip at least from me. "
------------------------------------
No one really answered this question about the % going up, up up. But then California did the same thing by putting sales tax up to 8.5%. Like I said will it just keep going up. And yes I don't care what the servers think while I'm being served. Although I do admit the service in US restaurants is much better than what we receive here in Canada. One example, they don't even bring water. You have to ask for water, and they are so chinzy on the ice here.
Daniel ............. Toronto, Canada
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teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2752
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:57 am: |
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"No one really answered this question about the % going up, up up. But then California did the same thing by putting sales tax up to 8.5%. Like I said will it just keep going up. And yes I don't care what the servers think while I'm being served. Although I do admit the service in US restaurants is much better than what we receive here in Canada. One example, they don't even bring water. You have to ask for water, and they are so chinzy on the ice here".
You'd have to ask the guests who seem to be the ones determining what the "average" tip that they leave is, but I have a couple of theories.
One is that there's a bit of internetitis coming into play. I can't speak for the newly minted server at a place like Applebees, mainly because I haven't been in that situation in years, but, for many of us who have been around for a while, we generally just see better than average tips and so we think (and say) that the average tip seems to be closer to 20%. So we make the possibly false assumption that 20% is the new standard. That's why I constantly pound the idea that 15% is still the "0 axis" if you will, with tips going from there up or down depending on the perceived quality of the service. Maybe much of what's being posted on the internet is by people who are more invested in the serving experience. After all, if you're new to the business, you might not even think it's worth spending time talking about on the 'net, just as someone working as a medical receptionist might not do a lot of talking about his or her job in forums.
But that still doesn't explain why polls have shown that people tend to tip what they tip without taking service into account (unless it's really bad or spectacularly wonderful). I suspect that part of this might be the idea that 20% is easier for most people to figure out than 15% or 17% or 18%.
I also suspect that 20% might be the standard on Manhattan due to the economic and social realities of the place. It's expensive to live there and I suspect that people subconsciously realize that it's virtually impossible to live on a server's wages, so over time, they've simply upped the ante a little bit. And, because it's a small closed overheated environment, all it takes is a few experts like Fodor's or food critics to proclaim that 20% seems to be the new 15% and it becomes "law". Of course, then the rest of us servers in other parts of the country point to that as a trend as well, and it's reinforced by the idea that many of us actually do get that already because our skill sets are higher.
It's not a linear thing either. first of all, I think you're assumption is just plain wrong. Maybe at the turn of the century, 10% was the standard for dining out (although I have no firm proof of that). However, for the past half century, 15% has been the standard. Of course, in 1965, when I was old enough to be told why daddy left money on the table and how he figured that out ("Why son, you take 15% of the total and give it to the server to say thank you for your service"), a coke in a restaurant was a quarter. So I'm not sure that freaking out about a possible creep of 5% over 50 some odd years justifies asking "in 100 years will it be 70%?"
The water and ice thing sounds very European. Perhaps Toronto itself feels more European due to the profound French influence? Oh wait, that's Montreal <chuckle>. Maybe you're trying to catch up or trying to be less like the US, where we like our heavily iced drinks.
One thing you can be grateful for though - here in the states, an increasing number of people complain about getting hit up by the server for expensive bottle water. I know that it's part of the routine that I have to maintain (or I lose points for not doing so in the event that I get a Secret Shopper). |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:42 pm: |
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I came across a website the other night.
www.fairtip.org
The goal is 20% for average due to tip-outs. I checked out the forum a little, doesn't look like it's been active since last summer so maybe they gave up.
Yes, in Europe, they don't put ice in the drinks. You have to ask.
Teleburst, you have to serve them bottled or ask them if they'd like bottled water? Bottled water is a pet peeve of mine. It's great for on the go, I'll refill mine a few times, but can't imagine drinking it around the house or in a restaurant, as if tap water is suddenly unacceptable. Most of it IS bottled tap water. There's the environment, too, if it isn't recyclable. |
paid_up
Advanced Member
Username: paid_up
Post Number: 702
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 07:03 am: |
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kris-I used to go to that site also. They couldn't justify 15% much less 20%. People just weren't buying into their plan. |
teleburst
Senior Member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 2754
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 07:48 am: |
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Kris, we simply have to ask and we have to use the brand names of the sparkling or still bottled water.
Our bottled water is actually Italian, so it isn't the locally bottled tap water that most is. Personally, I never drink American bottled water because of that very reason. And if I'm dining out, I always get tap. I hate sparkling water, which was always hard living in Germany because the tap water wasn't very good and my fiancee's family only drank "mit Gas". And I'm probably too cheap to get still water if I go out. Tap's just fine with me.
That Fairtip site was full of it and I said so when they tried to promote it here. In fact, they actually stole their "History of Tipping" from a guy named David Templeton's article called "Tipper Lore" at a Bay Area site called "MetroActive". I mean stole it word for word. Didn't even bother to rewrite it. They certainly didn't attribute it to him. They could very well be brought up on copyright issues.
(Message edited by teleburst on April 17, 2009) |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 11:15 pm: |
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Hmm, interesting. And they themselves are copyrighted.
Okay, I just alerted it to the paper and David Templeton. Fairtip seems defunct anyway but that's just wrong. Plus, the website irritated me. I'm a devil. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 108
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 07:55 pm: |
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Update:
I got a reply back.
"Talk about a "fair tip"! Thanks for sending that along, if only for our amusement at their own copyright info. I'll forward to David T.
bestG"
Hee, hee, it would be funny if they threatened them but at least they got a kick out of it. Too bad they didn't get slammed in their hey day, if ever they had one. |
vozveratu
Senior Member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:49 am: |
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Ahh, the power of voice and technology. Things move so much faster these days. |
kris
Member
Username: kris
Post Number: 113
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:30 pm: |
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As quick as halfway through a post to get through- :D |
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