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scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 302
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 01:16 pm: | 
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My hubby just clipped out an article from today's New York Times about a great boss.
At Soprano's Italian and American Grill in Lake George,NY, owner Joe Soprano had diner Humberto A. Taversas arrested for theft of services when he didn't leave the manatory 18% tip added on for big parties. Mr. Soprano said members of Mr.Taversas's party were very rude throughout their pizza dinner, but never complained about either the food or the service. Mr. Soprano further stated that all of the menus have a notice about the mandatory gratuity and that the policy was also specifically reminded about the restaurant's tipping policies.
Mr. Taversas complained thet Mr. Soprano "killed his week-end" and claimed that he had left a 10% tip. (Ten percent? What a cheapskate!)
Mr. Soprano claimed that Taversas shorted the check and left no tip (which would have been $13.73 on the $77.43 meal) for the waitress. Mr. Soprano said "This is for the hard working people who work for me. These people work strictly for tips and they work their tails off."
Mr.Taversas is scheduled to appear in Lake George town court on Sept.16.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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trog3d
New member
Username: trog3d
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 05:39 pm: |
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I don't know about any else but a restaurant gratuity is a "gift" given as thanks to a waiter/waitress for their service. I feel extremely insulted when a restaurant tries to dictate to me the amount of tip that I should leave. I always tip over the 18% amount but when I'm confronted with a sign that states what my gratuity is supposed to be I leave the 18% amount and not a penny more and I never return to that restaurant. There is too much competition out there to have to settle on a restaurant with such a crass policy. I know that there are cheapskates out there that don't like to tip but please don't lump all diners together. As far as Joe Soprano being such a "great boss", why doesn't he give his employees a decent wage so they won't have to be at the constant mercy of cheapskate customers such as Humberto A. Taversas? Then, and only then, will he be considered a great boss. |
mplsraisin
New member
Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 11:29 pm: |
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trog3d, a gratuity is not a gift, but part of the payment arrangement that one is a party to when they dine out at a full-service restaurant. Without getting into the specifics of this argument (you will find much said elsewhere on this board), I will say that if you don't like this arrangement you probably would be best off eating elsewhere. If you dine out and tip your server appropriately, regardless of any objections you might have, I suppose those objections are irrelevant. That said, the reason restaurants add gratuity to large groups is to ensure that the server is covered, so to speak, and won't unfairly go without compensation. I don't think that restaurant operators lump diners all together. Let's say that the person paying the check for a large group of (satisfied) people is an otherwise great tipper, but for one reason or the other simply forgets to add a tip. In this case that server pays taxes on that sale (see elsewhere on this board if you don't understand what this means) and actually loses money waiting on that table. Yes, this is fact....the sever will lose money on that sale because he or she will have to pay taxes on the tip (earned income) that the government assumes he or she received, but didn't. The same thing happens if he or she is otherwise not tipped - whatever the reason. This is the case of an employer protecting employees. This does not mean that in every instance the server is entitled to all or any of a gratuity added to a check. Never is a gratuity mandatory. Never. I managed a restaurant with a similar gratuity policy for a couple of years and if a guest ever had a genuine issue with his or her service I would delete the gratuity from the check (and often apply a discount to the net amount of the check itself). I suspect that any restaurant would probably take any amount of added gratuity off of a check if asked *regardless of reason*. Please try calling a few restaurants in your area that have this policy and see what they have to say. A tip is never mandatory, but nonetheless part of a server's pay structure. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 134
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 07:49 am: |
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My question is that if clearly states on the menu, the amount of gratuity for large parties (over 6) isnt it now required? Its almost like an agreement, if you as the guest continues with your meal.
Trog3d, I think Joe Soprano is a good boss.He is concerned that his employees are properly tipped while keeping the food prices down.He did take rather extreem measures to stick up for his server.
I did point out to mshaw in a previous thread that not only do servers not want stiffs, but ususally managment/owners dont either. Here is a little proof. |
cesar
New member
Username: cesar
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 09:10 am: |
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I was there, and I'm the one who notified the media about this story. So let's clarify a few facts.
This was not a tip issue. When they insulted all of us and treated us like criminals, it became a different matter.
As a consumer, I do not want to be lured into a vendor of any kind and then forced to pay a gratuity, regardless of attitude, service and quality. If you want higher prices, increase your food prices and don't hide behind your staff. At the very least call it what it is..A mandatory surcharge!
The "arrest" was ENTIRELY our decision and made out of principle. The officers on the scene asked us if we were sure we wanted to proceed and spent a lot more money on fighting the matter and we insisted on taking this to court. As his wife was first accosted by the restaurant, my friend Humberto immediately volunteered to be processed. The police did not want a second volunteer. We and police officers continued friendly conversation on the way to and at the station. The police did not handcuff or miranda Humberto. Ironically, the Sargeant said that they were waiving the REQUIRED bond posting.
As far as "cheapskate" we VOLUNTARILY will most likely spent hundreds if not thousands of $ on this matter. That's a lot more then the 18% forced "grauity" that the restaurant wanted to impose, regardless of their level of service or quality of the pizza pie and sandwiches they served.
Even with the quality issues, we still were leaving more then we should have, and refused to leave ANY, only after the staff and owners became billegerent and obnoxious. I insisted and got all my change back. All this in front of the police officers, who will probabaly testify on our behavior and cooperation if needed.
There was no conspicuously posted "mandatory gratuity" any where in the restaurant, nor did the waitress state this ahead of time.
The restaurant conveniently presented a menu with a handwritten, small print notice of mandatory gratuity. I randomly picked some menus from the host and a station, and presented menus of which the majority had no notice whatsoever. This was verified my the local media, whom I contacted later on in the week.
This "great boss", as the court records will show (assuming the town lets us proceed with the case) based on police and other witnesses, was out of line, certainly a lousy business person. We put our skin in the game by standing up for what's right. Let him put skin in the game by paying his staff appropriate salaries. The owners thought they were going to get away with the scam because they figured "who would pay so much more money" to fight this.
The police will verify that this has happened before; however, no one else was willing to protest. This gave the owner fredom to scam all tourists. Hopefully this will stop it.
Where were we when the NY times came for our side of the story. We were having dinner at another pizzeria (No we are not that crazy about pizza, we were just in a rush to see our interview on UPN. Who by the way got most of the story right). BTW-we did and do what many New Yorkers usually do. We doubled the tax and added a little extra to avoid the change! That usually becomes closer to 20%.
I am a regular at many local Queens restaurant (more then I should), and 99% of the time I get good service because I am a regular and I am more then a decent tipper. The other 1%... well everybody has an off day. People think I'm nuts for leaving a tip anyway.
Lastly, at least definitionally, the word gratuity comes from the lating word meaning free. If you look at a dictionary, it states a gift given voluntarily and without obligation.
Legally it seems more vague, but even the federal government and state government seem to be saying the samething. A totally different topic!
29 CFR 531.52 - General characteristics of ``tips.''
A tip is a sum presented by a customer as a gift or gratuity in
recognition of some service performed for him. It is to be distinguished
from payment of a charge, if any, made for the service. Whether a tip is
to be given, and its amount, are matters determined solely by the
customer, and generally he has the right to determine who shall be the
recipient of his gratuity.
Looking forward to your responses |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 305
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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Cesar, I am happy you saw this and responded. We all know that the media doesn't always get it right.
I do defend a restaurant policy of adding a gratuity for large parties however. The reason this is done is because too many times large parties do indeed stint on the tip for their server, even when the service is impeccable. I am not saying that Soprano's had this notice posted, I am just saying that the auto grat is jusified for large parties.
I worked (co-incidentally) at an Italian pizzaria-restaurant several years ago. For a long time, we had no policy regarding large parties. People tipped what they wanted and this was fine. Then, my co-worker had 2 different large parties leave only a 10% tip on their meal, despite having run us around refilling drinks (For some reason, large parties almost never order refills at the same time. You give one person another drink, and when you get to the table another wants one too.)
This of course takes time away from other diners who are equally worthy of our attention.
Anyway, after that, the owner instituted an autograt of 18% for parties of 8 or more, and it was posted on each menu as well as posted both at the bar and in the dining room. It was added for everyone equally, from our congressperson (who was a "regular" there) to Joe Blow who only came once a year on Good Friday. Some of our regular guests would leave us a few bucks extra anyway, eventhough they were told that the tip was included in the bill.
Now, about those government regs: Since I have to pay taxes on 100% of my tips, they are NOT gifts! The IRS sure doesn't consider my tips to be gifts. A gift is not taxable.
Somewhere between what you said happened and what the Times reported lies the truth.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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cesar
New member
Username: cesar
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:21 am: |
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True..The truth will come out in court, and things will be cleared up.
As a former bus boy who was audited by the IRS for his tip wages, and was billed for more taxes, I agree with you and support your right and expectation to be tipped fairly and for good service.
However, while I understand the practice of autogratuity, it must be clearly posted so the consumer can decide ahead of time. Also as a consumer, I do not have to be reminded to tip for good service and quality food. If the service is good you, will get a good tip. Conversely, if the service is bad..more then likely you will get a good tip anyway as most of us consumers including myself are embarrased to be called or thought of as cheapskates :-)
More importantly this practice leaves open the door to discrimination. In my 2 year stint as a busboy, I worked in a restaurant (MAJOR hotel in NYC), that promoted a practice to autograt only the visiting foreigners. hmmm...
As a family of six with 4 kids that practically "grew up" in restaurants,are well behaved, are told to clean up their own messes where possible and have parents that are friendly, cordial and not demanding of waiters/waitresses, how should I feel when I have to pay more because my family is larger?
Please increase the food bill so that all customers pay the same, and let me compensate the waiter based on their service!
This is clearly not a server/customer issue. It is a bad policy enforced by the restaurant lobby and backed up by the legal system. |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 542
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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"Lastly, at least definitionally, the word gratuity comes from the lating word meaning free. If you look at a dictionary, it states a gift given voluntarily and without obligation.
Legally it seems more vague, but even the federal government and state government seem to be saying the samething. A totally different topic!
29 CFR 531.52 - General characteristics of ``tips.''
A tip is a sum presented by a customer as a gift or gratuity in
recognition of some service performed for him. It is to be distinguished
from payment of a charge, if any, made for the service. Whether a tip is
to be given, and its amount, are matters determined solely by the
customer, and generally he has the right to determine who shall be the
recipient of his gratuity".
Yes, you're right, it *is* vague. I think that the federal code should stop using the term "gratuity" as the IRS has (you won't find the word grautiy anywhere on their site, at least when it comes to tipped INCOME). The word gratuity implies for most people a "gift", as you yourself have noted. However, the IRS doesn't recognize it as a gift" but as a variation of ordinary income, which it is.
It sounds like the whole thing was handled poorly from the owner's standpoint, however, it sounds like you didn't handle things all that well either. If you had specific grievances with the way your service was handled, you shouldn't have simply withheld payment (which it seems like what happened), you should have negotiated with the owner. Maybe this happened, but you aren't clear about it. A smart owner will try to make things better by comping food, or giving a gift certificate or just plain being apologetic and concerned. Sounds like this guy wasn't that way and let things spiral out of control. However, if you've ever been on the bad end of an unreasonable guest (and I'm not saying that *you* were unreasonable), you might understand how sometimes it's difficult to keep ones cool.
You have a point if not all menus have the autograt noted on the menu. This should be clearly indicated before service begins. That way, you can decide if the "surcharge" is something that you accept. If you don't, you don't have to eat there.
Just try to keep in mind that if you want the owner to pay for staff and you don't want to have to contribute separately, your pizza will probably go from $20 to $26, plus, you won't have very much leverage when service *is* poor. Do you really want to be forced to pay that price regardless of service and not have *any* recourse when things go south (you'd certainly have less "rights" in such a case than you currently have, regardless of the outcome of this case, and you might very well win this case if it can be established that you weren't properly notified about the "surcharge")
Remember, dining is a two way street, just like all transactions in this economy are. The best transactions are win-win, but it sounds like this one was lose-lose. It sounds like the owner is more at fault than you were, because he should have been savvy enough to finese the situation while protecting his server's income, but it sounds like you guys didn't help your own cause either.
Just my two cents. |
cesar
New member
Username: cesar
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 12:02 pm: |
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Teleburst,
"However, if you've ever been on the bad end of an unreasonable guest (and I'm not saying that *you* were unreasonable), you might understand how sometimes it's difficult to keep ones cool. "
As I said, I'm sure everyone is entitled to a bad day (At least in the eye of the receiver), but I guess you would also agree that if you or your wife/husband or friend were treated like criminals instead of being approached in a considerate and professional manner, you would most likely stand up for what you believe is right?
As far as helping our own cause: I am in the business of negotiations so I have a pretty good handle on realizing when the door is closed on negotiations. That is why we chose to deal with the legal system instead. Yes we chose the legal system, not the other way around. We could have walked away as a very quiet , never to be heard from again, unsatisfied customer but it was not the right thing to do.
Folks, I just wanted to set the record straight, but given the legal matter I will hold off on more postings until a decision is made. I have not said anything that is not currently available to the courts, and I hope you understand.
Regards |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 306
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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Cesar, I agree with you 100% that if there is an autograt, it should be applied to all diners. My previous employer also had an autograt for large parties, but he only applied it selectively,never to his friends, but always to minorities and people of color. To me, that is just plain wrong.It's discriminatory and shows outmoded and prejudiced thinking.
My own feeling when an autograt is added to one of my tables is that I want to make extra sure I give them good service because thay are paying for it and they should get what they paid for, but I do know that some wait people take an attitude of "I'm getting my cut so who gives a damn." (I want to give everyone good service actually!)
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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mork
New member
Username: mork
Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 01:45 pm: |
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I think the case of the pizzeria owner is legitimate as long as it was made clear to the guest that his party would be autograted ahead of time. If the server did not mention it or if it was not stated on the menu, |
trog3d
New member
Username: trog3d
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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A restaurant gratuity is a gift given to a waiter/waitress as a thanks for their good service. Most waiters and waitresses work hard for their money and so do I. I'm not about to automatically give 18% to someone that provided me with weak service just because they know that their tip will be covered regardless of how they treat the customer. After a meal, I find it distasteful to have to haggle with the manager about taking an autogratuity off the check because of bad service. I would much rather pay more for my food and base my gratuity on the only thing it should be based on, a good level of service. I recently went to a restaurant with my husband, (party of 2) and we didn't notice the tiny print on the menu stating the autogratuity policy. Our waitress took our order, a server brought us our meal, and that was the last we saw of anyone until we had to flag our waitress down for the check. There was a party of twelve at the next table and the waitress was super attentive to them, immediately refilling their water, getting their drink orders, etc. When we finally received our check not only was 18% added but there was also an additional tip line on the bill. When we asked the waitress about it she said that she had to share the tip with so many other people that an additional tip was always welcome. Well, I would welcome an additional raise on top of my usual one but we don't always get what we wish for. My husband and I learned a valuable lesson from that experience. Now, before we go out to eat we call ahead and ask about the restaurant's gratuity policy. I totally agree with Cesar, restaurants that insist on adding 18% to a diner's bill should call it what it is, a surcharge, not a gratuity. I hope that the Taversas party wins their lawsuit and force a much needed change in the restaurant industry. |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 307
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 01:17 pm: |
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Trog3d,Mr Taversas was not displeased with his service, he was displeased with his food. The waitress didn't cook the food, and Mr. Taversas didn't complain about it until after it had been consumed. Had Mr.Taversas sent his food back, a new meal could have been cooked. He chose not to do that and ate the food. No restaurant refunds money when the food is consumed, but almost all will gladly take back improperly prepared meals. I encourage my guests to send food back if it isn't to their satisfaction. I myself return food that isn't cooked to my specifications.
I do think it's a little weird that a pary of 2 was autogratted; that's something usually only done when there is a large party, precisely because of all the reasons given above. (Large parties taking up more time for the kitchen as well as the wait staff etc)
However, those of you who argue that tipping should be eliminated ought to be pleased by it. It eliminates tipping since the tip is added to the bill.So make up your mind; either you are in favor of the current practice whereby the guest determines the tip based on the wait person's service or the tip is added to the bill and the guest pays it regardless of the level of service.
Oh, and your waitress was dead wrong to expect to be double tipped.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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mplsraisin
New member
Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 04:21 pm: |
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A tip is never mandatory and I have to believe that should any diner have an issue with their food, service or anything else a competent server or manager would negotiate and adjust the amount of the check and any gratuity added as he or she sees fit. And complaining about your food after you have eaten all or most of it just makes no sense at all. Several times people have nodded and smiled when I have asked them how their food is, eaten all of it, stiffed me (since I apparently prepared the meals as well), and then wrote little notes on a napkin or credit card receipt telling me how crappy the food was. When handling complaints of any kind, the bottom line for me as a manager and server is that the customer leave happy and I'm not getting screwed. Tip as a surcharge, trog3d?? Not really. When was the last time you looked at your phone bill - those are surcharges. And you think the restaurant world is screwing you... |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 213
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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As some have mentioned on this board, a tip is a sum presented by a customer in recognition of some service preformed for him. It is to be distinguished from payment of a charge, if any, made for the service. Whether a tip is to be given, and its amount, are matters determined solely by the customer, and generally he has the right to determine who shall be the
recipient of his gratuity.
While a autograt had been added to the bill, one cannot blame the waitress for explaining that a tip is always welcome. Autograts and service charges are not tips and are not protected as the property of the waitress. Can you blame the waitress for hoping the customer might present her with a tip that is protected under federal law as her sole property. Here is what the federal laws say about autograts.
A compulsory charge for service, such as 10 percent of the amount of the bill, imposed on a customer by an employer's establishment, is not a tip and, even if distributed by the employer to his employees, cannot be counted as a tip received in applying the provisions of section 3(m) and 3(t). The amounts received from customers are the "employer's property", not his, and do not constitute tip income to the employee. CFR 531.55
You see autograts are not tips and businesses that represent autorats as tips are defrauding the public with such deceptions. I commend all those who refuse to pay such fradulent service charges representing tips. Service charges are the business's property not the waitstaff's. Add addition charges to the price of the meal and let the waitstaff earn and keep their tips. |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 308
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:04 pm: |
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George, when an autograt is added on in a restaurant,the whole amount is given to the wait person. He or she is then responsible for tipping his/her suport staff. trog's waitress was just plain greedy.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 138
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:22 pm: |
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Scarlett, yes the autograt belongs to the server. If I am understanding this properly....
George states federal law as saying that by the employer distributing the tip to the server it is not protected by the federal law as a tip. Its like a slide of hand kind of deal.But alot of places dont have a "cash register" where all bills are cashed out.You are given your charge card tips at the end of shift.We at my job carry our own banks and whatever we ring in the line of food or beverage we are responsible for.Getting our report tells us how much we owe.So management doesnt have their hands into dispensing tips.
I do understand what George is saying. (scary) But its not such a great concern, because this doesnt happen.The wording on the federal laws he is quoting makes it seem managemnet could have their way with my tips, on an autograt. Dont think too many owners or managres would live to do it again. |
mplsraisin
New member
Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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Since when did the language in all of the thousands of laws and codes in this country always make perfect sense to the average American and always reflect reality? So this particular code states that "a compulsory service charge...is not a tip...is the 'employer's property'...and does not consitute tip income...blah blah blah - I'll take your word for it. But the reality is that the server expects that money to go home with him or her after the shift is over (minus any tip outs to other staff). Do think for one minute that were this not to happen the server wouldn't raise hell? Look, alot of the debate on this board concerning laws and codes is highly semantic. Words such as "gift", "gratuity", "tip", "property", "income", etc. have one meaning on Capitol Hill and an entirely different meaning elsewhere. Do you think that those in congress choose their words that carefully? Not unless they are under oath. These are, by and large, a bunch of old, fat, rich, white guys who have probably never stepped foot in a restuarant except to order a meal. I have read code after code after code quoted on this board and their interpretation seems, more often than not, to come down to semantics - what the words are intended to mean and their context. Whatever you call that sum of money left for a server at the end of a meal (regardless of the manner in which it is provided) is taxed as income. The IRS is very clear on this - just ask a server or restaurant owner who has ever been audited. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 214
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:52 pm: |
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One of the most important points concerning the autograt or serevice charges is that while an autograt allows the business to determine who will be the recipient of such payments, a tip allows the customer to determine who will be the recipient of his tip for tips are defined as belonging to the person in recoginition of whose service it's presented by the customer. While an autograt may be distributed by the employer to anyone working in the establishement, tips have been distinguished from autograts for the customer can generally determine who will be the recipient. Autograts deny the customer any right to determine who should receive such moneys. Federal laws along with opinions issued by the DOL have outlined that the recipient of a customer's tip has an undeniable right to share his tip with other workers if he so chooses and that such tip sharing is considered tip pooling and also outlined in federal laws on tips. Employers who choose to assess service charges or an autograt in lieu of tips are surreptitiously denying their customers their right to determine who will be the recipient of their gratuity. While customers may also tip on top of any service charges or autograts, many are being mislead to believe that they have already tipped via the autograt, however, when one notes that the customewr has lost his legal right to actually determine who will be the recipient of his gratuity it is obvious that the establishment is attempting to strip the customer of his right to determine who should be the legal owner of his money. Autograts and service charges are clearly fraud on our public for they deceive the customer into allowing the business to decide who should be the recipient of their presumed tip. Instead of tipping, customers become prey to the service charge which confiscates money from them representing itself as a tip and gives the legal entitlement to such moneys over to the establishment where they may determine who receives such moneys. Business who assess service charges in many cases are knowingly assessing these charges for the sole purpose of attaining the ability to determine who will receive such moneys. The tip credit is being taking on many employees who receive income from autograts and service charges even though federal laws clearly have distinguished service charges from tips. Service charges and autograts are being utilized by many businesses to strip the customer of his right to determine who will be the recipient of his gratuity and to gain an ability to distribute the moenyes received from such charges as tips to as many employees as they can in an effort to gain more tip credits. You see many businesses have struggled when attempting to share a customers tips with worrkers who do not ussually receive tip income and when customers are allowed to determine who will be the recipient of their tip many employees are neglected. When employees are neglected employers are unable to take a tip credit on them and loss out on many of the benefits that they have seeming comnvinced our government that they should recieve from customers. |
mplsraisin
New member
Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:44 pm: |
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There are also restaurants that pool all of the servers tips for the shift and divide them evenly. This does not seem fair to me and for that reason I would probably never work at such a place. I probably would not, knowingly, dine at such a place either. Obviously, servers who work at a restaurant with an autograt policy for any length of time feel that the compensation system, whatever that may be, is fair or else I am to assume that they would no longer work there. It is also your right to ask the manager or owner what the automatic gratuity policy amounts to and how tips are distributed before being seated or ordering the meal. If you really think that there is fraud involved or that something illegal is going on than the proper authorities should be notified. If you, like me, just don't like anything other than your food and beverage (plus tax) on your bill than you should simply avoid eating at places with things like autograts and surcharges. Choices, choices, choices - gotta love this country! |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 215
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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mplsraisin wrote:
There are also restaurants that pool all of the servers tips for the shift and divide them evenly.
Unfortunately they are violating federal law. While tip pooling has been allowed under federal law when it is clearly recognized as an employee exercising his constitutional right to dispose of part of his property or tips to other workers, tip pooling cannot be construed as simply a means to deny our public of their constitutional right to determine who will be the recipient of their tip. The amounts that employees receive as tip income and which must be reported to the Internal Revenue Service as tip income have been clearly explained as amounts which must be determined by the customer. Federal laws unmistakebly state that whether a tip is given and it's amount are matters which must be determined solely by the customer. Clearly it is the right of the customer or the public to determine the tip income of a tipped employee. Unless customers tip every employee evenly, employees should not be reporting or receiving tips evenly. The fact that employers are determining how much employees should receive from our public's tips clearly illistrates that federal laws are being violated by such policies. An employee's tip income should only be determined by the customers which he serves. Employers should not be determining that tips must be received evenly for all employees when the customer under federal law is supposed to be the only one allowed to determine such matters.
Employers of this country are requiring that their employees must pool their tips for one reason, that being to gain control of the tips presented by customers so that the employer may control who will be the recipients of our public's tips and the amounts that will be received by employees as tip income. If an employees tip income can be shown to exceed $3.03 an hour many employers gain an ability to take a tip credit on those employees for that $3.03 an hour. What this means is that if an employee's tips exceed $24.00 a day an employer may take a tip credit on that employee where the employer is only required to pay that employee $2.12 an hour or the difference between minimum wage, $5.15 an hour, and the maximum tip credit amount of $3.03 an hour. It is however required that an employee must receive at least $3.03 an hour in order for an employer to take the maximum tip credit. It is clearly beneficial to employers to pool the tips presented by our public with workers who do not customarily and regularly receive the requisite amount of $3.03 an hour in tips. An employee who does not customarily and regularly receive the requisite amount in tips to qualify his employer to the the full tip credit allowance is a financial burden to the employer for the employer is forced to pay a minimum wage higher than that allowed by the tip credit. To qualify an employee as one who may have the maximum tip credit taken on him employers have resorted to violations to the federal laws on tips. Employers have blatantly ignored the federal laws on tips which clearly explain that it is the customer's sole right to determine whether a tip is given and the amount and have taken it upon themselves to determine whether a tip is given and the amount which will be received as tip income. Employers who institute mandatory tip pooling policies are dictating who will receive tips and how much each of their employees will receive as tip income for the purpose of financially gaining from such control via the tip credit provisions of this country.
While tipped employees have struggled to prove that employers are intentionally instituting these employment policies for their financial gains, federal laws have addressed such violations. CFR 531.40 clearly states;
Where an employer is directed by a voluntary assignment or order of his employee to pay a sum for the benefit of the employee to a creditor, donee, or other third party, deduction from wages of the actual sum so paid is not prohibited: Provided, That neither the employer nor any person acting in his behalf or interest, directly or indirectly, derives any profit or benefit from the transaction. In such case, payment to the third person for the benefit and credit of the employee will be considered equivalent, for purposes of the Act, to payment to the employee. (b) No payment by the employer to a third party will be recognized as a valid payment of compensation required under the Act where it appears that such payment was part of a plan or arrangement to evade or circumvent the requirements of section 3(m) or subpart B of this part.
Payments that are contrived from employer required tip pooling and distributed to employees who did not themselves receive the requisite amount in tips directly from customers are payments which are undeniably beneficial to the employer for they allow the maximum tip credit to be taken for employees whose tip incomes have articficially been bolstered through such tip pooling to meet the requistite amount for taking the maximum tip credit. As undeniably beneficial to the employer, the amounts deducted from those who have actually received the tips themselves directly from customers and which are being transferred to employees in an obvious attempt to artificially bring other worker's tip incomes up to the requisite amount, the amounts deducted from those employees who have actually received the tips from customers are illegal deductions from wages and are in violation of regulation 531.40. Employers who decrease some of their employees tip incomes in an effort to bring other's tip incomes up to the requisite amount for taking the maximum tip credit are in violation of 531.40 for clearly they are benefiting from the transaction by increasing their tip credit allowances.
While it has been an almost impossible job for employees to prove that they are not voluntarily transfering their tips to other workers when working under employers who require as a condition of employment that their employees must pool their tips, it can be proven that such required tip pooling results in other violations to the federal laws on tips. CFR 531.40 clearly distinguishes tip pooling as allowed under federal law from the blatant scams which employers are currently utilizing for their own financial gains. Employer required tip pooling is prohibited under federal law for it clearly and undeniably results in employers financially gaining from such required transaction. CFR 531.40 prohibits employer required tip pooling where an employer is enabled to transfer the tips of one employee to another for his own financial gains. |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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If you feel something illegal is going on report them to your city or state labor inspector. Or you could contact 20/20, Dateline, or your local television news station and let them do the dirty work for you. Trashing restaurants on TV is good for ratings - second only to trashing auto repair shops. This isn't usually fair to the restaurants but the public will somehow feel a benefit - real or not. Tipping Stone Phillips anybody?? |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 217
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 04:01 pm: |
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I do not feel that something illegal is going on, I know with certainty that something illegal is going on. I along with many of my fellow tipped employees are having their tips stolen from them by businesses who have, I believe, bribed our courts, lawyers government officials, government agencies and the media into turning a blind eye to their criminal acts. You are not going to get this story printed in any newspaper and you certainly are not going to get this story aired on national TV. Billions of dollars are being stolen and this money adds up to plenty to go around to all those willing to partake in the pillaging of our American tip earner's tips. Employers are taking tip credits on employees in excess of 100's of millions of dollars a year. Just look at how many tipped employees some of the biggest chain restaurants and hotels employ. These employees are being paid below minimum wage standards because the public has been defrauded into paying the business's payroll expenditures. While the majority of our public believes that they are tipping and should be benefiting the service workers of this nation there has become a conspiracy in our nation to utilize our public's tips for the purpose of benefiting businesses and creating low paying jobs.
It's fruad. A big fat fraud geared at stealing money from those who need it so that our businesses can get fatter and so that our government can look good in regards to keeping unemployment down. You see when employers are allowed to steal the tips presented by our public they can do themselves a favor and our government at the same time. They can pay their employees below minimum wage standards by distributing the tips that they have stolen to other workers who do not generally receive tips from the public thus saving them on payroll expentidures and at the same time they can hire more workers since they are paying such low wages thereby making our government look like the hero. Everybody that counts wins. The public and the tipped employee are the big losers here but if an issue is never made of such injuistices none will be the wiser. While it is important to create jobs in America, creating them at the expense of those who are in need of finacial support does not do are country a bit of good.
Truthfully the whole issue of the importance of job creation is a bit baffling to me. It seems like there should be no problem in getting people to employ a lot of other people to make money for them. If there truly is a shortage of people willing to get others to make money for them I will gladly volunteer to take over any businesses struggling with the high costs of labor. I believe that this whole unemployment concern is just another in the long list of deceptions being sold to the public. Why do we always have to give invcentives to business to hire people. The more people working for you, the more momey you should be able to make. Do you really believe that there is a shortage of people willing to employ others when employing others has proven to make these employers wealthy beyond their dreams all across our nation? There should be no concern for employment when we can witness the employers of this nation driving around in their $100,000.00 cars and taking their cruises in their $40,000,000.00 yacths as they decide which of their $10,000,000.00 homes they will spend their summer in. Oh, these poor employer type millionaires. Heaven forbid, we just seem to be running out of individuals willing to live such life styles.
Maybe we can give them more incentives to be rich by letting them not pay tipped employees at all. Why should tipped employees even be paid when our public is willing to pay their salaries? We've already allowed many businesses to ignore the minimum wage requirements of this nation so it looks like the next step would be to just drop the minimum wage completely and make these low lifes beg for money. As long as you provide a place for them to beg what more can be asked.
This, however, is not the way that is has to be nor is it the way it should be. Minimum wage should rise yearly with the cost of living. Inflation seems to be just another of our nations conspiracies geared at providing lowered payroll expenditures for our short supply of employer millionaire types. With a steady rise in inflation, which our FRB chairman suggests is good for our economy, employers are guaranteed pay decreases until such time they increase their employees wages. An employee who accepts $10.00 an hour this year will actually only be receiving $9.50 an hour next year in proportion to the actual cost of living. Who's economy is this good for Mr. Greenspan. Most Americans are employees. Their economies are not getting better when the Federal reserve keeps inflation rising for the majority of Ameiricans are losing when their incomes are only increased every 5 years or so and yet the value of what they are being paid is intentionally being decreased daily.
This is the truth that you will not find in the newspapers of this country nor on any television station. Our country has gone to the wolves.
The internet has provided us with the chance of a life time. We can now exercise our right to free speech. Please do. |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 552
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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"Truthfully the whole issue of the importance of job creation is a bit baffling to me. It seems like there should be no problem in getting people to employ a lot of other people to make money for them. If there truly is a shortage of people willing to get others to make money for them I will gladly volunteer to take over any businesses struggling with the high costs of labor".
Then get off your duff and do it. Run a restaurant with 20-30% of your sales going directly to payroll and see how long you stay open.
You talk a big game, but you're just an empty blowhard. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 218
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 12:19 pm: |
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Teleburst, I am so happy to see that you are using your chance of a lifetime for such nobel pursuits. I guess for some people a chance of a life time means a chance to tell people off without intimidation instead of a chance for making changes that might better our world.
My intent on the other hand is to stop the stealing that is taking it's tole on many of our good hearted service industry workers. Rather than deceive others into making money for them they choose to work for what their customers feel they deserve. Sorry if they are not creating jobs but when their employers are paying them at hourly rates at one fifth that required to live above the poverty level there doesn't seem to be a lot left over for creating jobs for our country. Thanks again Teleburst for your gumming up of evey single one of my posts.
Sincerely,
George |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 02:35 pm: |
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George, thank you very much for the concern on our behalf, but you are preaching to the choir. A system of compenstation is in place for those of us who work in restaurants - we agree to work within its rules or we get out. I work for a huge corporation with lots of mouths to feed (not just the people sitting in the dining room - the stockholders). Yeah, it's a huge, greedy, self-serving corporation - they all are - but I choose to work for it because I feel that I am treated and compensated fairly. Choices, choices... |
jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 142
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
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mpisrasin, thats where Im at with my job. Its a huge corporation, the benefits are excellent.
In the year I have been a member on this board. I have suffered through many of Georges LONG posts.He claims not to be a server but a tipped employee.However it is a secret what he does for a living.So with that in mind I cannot for the life of me understand why he takes such a stand on the opressed server.
If the financial arrangement were unacceptable to me I would no longer work at my job. I make tons of money, the company makes a nice haul everybody is happy. Now we have the issue of what is right, I have never found at any job anything irregular about receiving my tips.So what exactly is wrong????Nothing as far as I am concerned. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 219
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:46 pm: |
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There are many who see nothing wrong which stealing tips from those who receive more than others of course many of those who commend and condone such crimes are also the beneficiaries to some degree of the tips being stolen. I will never get unanimous support for prohibiting employer required tip pooling because besides the businesses of this nation benefiting from this undeniable fraud on our public,there are those employees who also benfit some from such fraud who will obviously be in opposition to putting an end to employer required tip pooling.
However, if you support such crimes against our tipped employees which also amount to crimes against our public please defend your position. Why should tips be taken from those who have actually been the recipient of a customer's tip so that others may be paid lower wages? Why shouldn't customers have the right to physically present a tip to an individual and expect that individual to solely benefit from his tip without having to contact the manager to explain that his tip is only intended for that individual employee? Why shouldn't a customer be allowed to leave a tip for an individual when federal laws clearly have explained that whether a tip is given, in this case to other workers, is supposed to be solely up to the customer to determine? Why should employers be able to force their empoloyees to give part of their tips to other workers so that the employer may pay those other workers lower wages? There can be no truthful answers to these questions because stealing is wrong and anyway you attempt to spin it will also be wrong. Employer required or mandated tip pooling is undeniably theft, fraud and extortion. It will be stopped eventually. You will eventually understand when you can no longer find a job which doesn't require tip pooling. |
scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 310
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:07 pm: |
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And conversely, why should a dining guest have to explain that he wants his tip to be fairly shared with his wait person's support staff?
If we don't earn enough money at one restaurant after tipping out, we quit. It's that simple.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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George, I don't know exactly which places pool tips, defraud their employees, or otherwise steal as you claim. If and when I ever did have a reason to believe that such a thing were happening I would not spend my money there and I would hope that others would do the same. I know for a fact that my employer does no such thing. At the end of each shift a computer generated "server checkout" is printed with all the financial information about my shift: sales, comps, discounts, tax, each credit card transaction and associated tip, gift card transactions, etc. Since we do "server banking" (that is, we settle the check for the guest ourselves - no cash register) the checkout sheet tells us what we owe the restaurant with all of the math laid out clearly before us. There are simply no tricks or secret ploys to be found as they could be found immediately. I was also a manager for this company for many years and am intimately familiar with the budget. Guess what? No line on the budget to account for a skim of server tips. You could steal from a rookie and probably get away with it, but veteran servers know almost to the penny what they should walk with at the end of a shift. So, what is it that you do, George? I think that jammie has a point and after enduring your enormous posts that we are entitled to know. We don't need company and store number - just put it in the ballpark for us. Pizza, flowers, valet, bartender???? |
scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 311
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 10:08 pm: |
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Mplraisin, George isn't a waiter at all. He won't say what it is he actually does for a living, other than that he works in Las Vegas but another poster said that in all probability "George" which is casino slang for a big tipper is a dealer. Somewhere in these threads he posts about what it is George does.
George himself is very secretive about his profession, saying only that he is a "tip earner", claiming his occupation not germaine.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 144
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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mrpisrasin, I dont feel I am being stolen from, defrauded or any other sneaky manager trick pulled upon me. I would not condone such activity in any way shape or form. I also dont tip pool.We do our cash outs the same as you.
This is why I really dont understand the problem here.I have not ever heard of these type missing tip dilemas.Ive been in the indusrty of over 25 years.Now I dont calim to know it all.
I wouldnt work at a place where tips are pooled. As you pointed out life is full of choices. |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:11 pm: |
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Jammie, I did not intend to suggest that you (or anybody else) are a victim of some employer scheme to defraud you of tips. This appears to be george's dilemma and his alone. I agreed with you in this case (and, it would seem, many others on this board) in wanting to know what it is that george does for a living - that is, how he earns his tips. Nothing more. Sorry for the confusion. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 220
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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mlpsraisin wrote:
the checkout sheet tells us what we owe the restaurant with all of the math laid out clearly before us.
George:
Other than the price of the meal and taxes what else would you owe the restaurant?
It doesn't sound like your customers are actually being allowed to determine the amount of your tip when you have stated that a computer does all that for the customer.
You wrote:
At the end of each shift a computer generated "server checkout" is printed with all the financial information about my shift: sales, comps, discounts, tax, each credit card transaction and associated tip, gift card transactions, etc.
Since when is it the sole right of a computer to determine the amount of a customer's tip when so clearly our laws mandate that it is the sole right of the customer to determine the amount of a tip and whether it is given?
CFR 531.52
A tip is a sum presented by a customer as a gift or gratuity in recognition of some service performed for him. It is to be distinguished from payment of a charge, if any, made for the service. Whether a tip is to be given, and its amount, are matters determined solely by the customer.
Please answer me this question mlpsraisin.
Are your customers determining how much you receive in tip income or is the employer's computer determining how much you will receive in tip income?
I really don't think whether or not the math is laid out clearly before you is as important as whether the math laid out before you is accurate.
By the way I am a tip earner just like the majority of you claim to be. I refuse to be classified as an occupation where my tips can be stolen from me and shared among those who have been similarly classified. Isn't that a good enough answer concerning what I do. Why should I become a target and lose my abilities to speak out on this issue without fear of reprisal? I am jeopardizing the current finances of many businesses who have wrongfully seized part of their worker's incomes as financial benefits to themselves. Should I not fear reprisal when I am exposing a crime which provides them with unearned financial gains?
You see under the current interpretation of federal law my tips may be stolen from me and shared with other employees as long as my tips are share with those who are also classified as tipped employees. The DOL has attempted to compile a list of occupations which are eleigible to have their tips stolen from them. While it makes no sense at all, the DOL has contended that occupations which the DOL classsifies as tipped employees may be required to give their tips over to a tip pool where the employer may share them with other employees who are also on the DOL's list of occupations which are tipped employees. The DOL seems to think that they should be mind readers and determine which occupations should be the recipient of a customer's tip. I will not become a party to their deceptions by classifying myself for them. I am simply a tipped employee not a waiter, not a busboy, not a bartender and not a counter person who serves the customers however, this is the list of occupations which are mentioned in the federal laws on tips. I believe these occupations are listed only as examples of the types of employees who have in the past customarily and regularly received tips from customer. The DOL seems to want us to believe that if you are classified as one of these occupations or as one they have since added to their list, your tips may be pooled among all those who are also a part of this list. Such logic, however, would suggest that these workers do not have an individual entitlement to the tips presented to them by customers and as such the tips must be viewed as the group property of all those who the DOL determines to be tipped employees. Our individual right to tips is being stolen from us in attempts to create jobs. The DOL is aggresively adding occupations to their list in an attempt to disentitle the individual tip earner to the tips he has received from customers. When the DOL disentitles the actual recipient of a customer's tip to the tips which he has received the tips may be used to supplement other workers and to create more jobs. The problem is the DOL is doing so without the public's consent or knowledge. This injustice will be rectified.
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teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 554
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 09:10 am: |
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"mlpsraisin wrote:
the checkout sheet tells us what we owe the restaurant with all of the math laid out clearly before us.
George:
Other than the price of the meal and taxes what else would you owe the restaurant"?
You know goerge, I'm beginning to wonder if you even work in a casino. Maybe you're the hairdresser to Wayne Newton.
You claim to know so much about "our situation", but you show yourself to be clueless to what servers *really* do in their jobs.
Let me explain it to you like I'd explain it to my 4th grade nephew and hope that I'm not being too complex for you.
Server brings his or her own "bank". This is a certain amount of money from which the server can make change if needed. It can be any amount that the server wishes, but there's usually a minimum amount required by the restaurant for the server to bring with them.
Some tables pay with credit card and some with cash. If they are all credit cards, the server doesn't owe the restaurant anything. They get their full tips, which is the difference between the cost of the meal ad the total including tip at the bottom of the credit card slip. If a few people pay cash, then the restauant doesn't have to give as much money because the server already has some cash in the bank. If *everybody* pays cash, then the server owes the restaurant the total amount of the food bills plus tax, but minus tips. Once you subtract out the original bank, the server can then determine what they make after they tipout, which is done separately from the restaurant transaction.
It's pretty simple really (sort of like you actually).
Once the server receives his or her tip money from the restaurant, they then pay out their tipout separately. Most restaurants have a spot on their checkout sheet for noting the tipout amounts but leave it to the server to distribute the money. I've always handed the tipout directly to each recipient, and I've worked in 4 restaurants that had tipouts. This amount comes from the money that I have received from my work, and it's never touched by the restaurant itself.
See, your other mistake was saying that "the computer does all that for the customer". The tipout never actually enters the restaurant's cash flow at any point. It's only listed on the checkout sheet or in the computer for tax info purposes (for our protection). Tipout is done separately and not part of the cash owed to/from the restaurant. In fact, in my current restaurant, we simply write the amounts ourselves at the top of the computer printout. In my previous restaurant, we wrote it on a sheet along with everything else, but the restaurant gave us what it owed us directly without touching the tipout. The only thing that the written tipout affected was the listed "claimed tips" amount, since we don't have to pay taxes of tipout amounts.
"By the way I am a tip earner just like the majority of you claim to be. I refuse to be classified as an occupation where my tips can be stolen from me and shared among those who have been similarly classified. Isn't that a good enough answer concerning what I do. Why should I become a target and lose my abilities to speak out on this issue without fear of reprisal"?
How are you going to suffer reprisals? Nobody here knows who you are. I think it's just that you are either a liar about what you do or you are ashamed of your profession. At least the rest of us have the courage of our convictions by disclosing what we do for a living. Yes, like you, I'm not willing to disclose my employer, but I *am* willing to disclose my profession.
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scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 315
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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George, how on Earth does disclosing your profession give anyone any clue as to where you work or who you are off line?
Teleburst, I think you're wrong. He can't be Wayne Newton's hair dresser; he's probably the homeless guy who tries to wash Wayne Newton's windsheild.
George, until you are a little more forthcoming with the rest of us who have disclosed our professions, whether we are waiters, hairstylists , delivery people or whatever, you will have zero credibility with me. Even M_Shaw, odious as he is, has been forthcoming about his occupation.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 221
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:54 pm: |
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Teleburst, your explanation of how the tipout is derived is baffling. Do you determine the amount or does the restaurant? Regardless of whether you or your restaurant determines the amount, many waiters are being required to tip out other staff members and many restaurants are undeniably determining the amount of the tip out servers are required to pay staff who do not directly receive tips from the public. While you state that the tip moneys do not enter the restaurants cash flow at any time many of these employees minimum wages are being calculated using income they receive from such tipouts. The amount in tipouts that a non-tipped employee receives through tipouts must total at least $2.13 an hour in order for a business to receive the full tip credit allowance. I am under the impression, due to the many letters from waiters I have received, that many businesses are determining that waiters must tip out a percentage or in some cases a set amount to other staff members so that the restaurant may take the maximum tip credit on employees who do customarily and regularly receive tips directly from customers. The tips received by waiters directly enters the restaurants cash flows when they are enabled in reducing their payroll expenditures by an amount equal to the required tip out amount of $2.13 an hour. This money which amounts to over $16 dollars a day per employee can be reduced from the payroll expenses of the restaurant and is added to the cash flow of the restaurant as income to the restaurant. Restaurants all over our country are financially benefiting from the tips presented to their waiters and other employees who have actually been the recipient of customer tips via the actions of the customer. While businesses may assses service charges and benefit from such charges businesses are forbidden from benefiting from tips presented by our public. The employer required tipouts and tip pooling which are being instituted all over this country are being instituted for the sole purpose of illegally benefiting from the moneys presented by our public as tips. Tips are not supposed to benefit the businesses of this country but the workers who the public has chosen as the recipients of their tips. Many employees who are having tip credits taken on them are not chosen by the public nor by the recipients of customer's tips but by businesses so greedy that they must steal the benefits of their employees tips. |
teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 555
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:05 pm: |
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"Teleburst, your explanation of how the tipout is derived is baffling".
Yes, I imagine that it is, since I didn't discuss how it was "derived", just how it was delivered.
Yes, there are other tipped employees other than the direct ones that the guest encounters. They have the same right to compensation as the server does.
*All* tips "help the business" (including the ones that go to the server), but it also helps the guest by keeping prices down. I guess that you're saying that servers shouldn't be compensated by tips at all, since it's those tips that allow the business to pay $2.13 an hour.
And yes, it's the business that determines the general range of tipouts. For instance, my current restaurant suggests 3.5% - 5% for server assistants. I have chosen to work with that arrangement. I also have the choice to seek employment elsewhere, since it was disclosed to me before I was hired.
"While businesses may assses service charges and benefit from such charges businesses are forbidden from benefiting from tips presented by our public".
The word that makes your statement false is "benefiting". They benefit from *all* tips since they pay servers as little as 2.13 an hour.
You lose.
Again.
Now, back to your celebrity dogwalking or whatever your employment is. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 222
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:51 pm: |
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Teleburst wrote:
Yes, there are other tipped employees other than the direct ones that the guest encounters. They have the same right to compensation as the server does.
While they may have the same right to receive tips from customers, only customers are allowed under federal law to determine whether a tip is given to them. You see tips are defined as a sum presented by a customer not moneys certain people have a right to. Why do tipped employees other than the direct ones that the guest encounters have a right to that which has not been presented them? How can you even call other employees that the guest encounters but does not take actions to tip a tipped employee? You see, customers do not have to tip other employees they may encounter just as they do not have to tip the direct employees that they encounter. It is a customer's contitutional right to determine whether or not he tips an individual. Don't even attempt to begrudge my customers of their constitutional right to determine whether or not their tip is given to an employee.
How much brainwashing have you undergone? Have you really been convinced that employees who the customer does not choose to tip should receive his money without his knowledge or permission? You are talking about our customers. You know, the ones who put bread on your table. Why do you belittle their constitutional rights so? Shouldn't the public who takes care of you be allowed their constitutional rights?
Teleburst wrote:
I guess that you're saying that servers shouldn't be compensated by tips at all, since it's those tips that allow the business to pay $2.13 an hour.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying that it is the customer's sole right to determine who should be compensated by their tip, no one elses. As far as our public's tips allowing the business to pay the employees who receive them $2.13 an hour I would like your take on this issue. Why should your customers be deceived into paying the business's payroll expenditures with the tips they beleive are intended to benefit the worker or workers that they have chosen to present tips to? Why also should the business benefit from the public's tips when businesses have other means which are not fraudulent to derive extra moneys for their payroll expenditures such as raising the prices on their menues? Instead of raising the prices on their menues or making cost cutting measures to insure that their will be an adequate amount of income available for payroll expenditures many businesses seem to believe that they may use their employee's tips without the consent of their employees and without the consent of the public. Federal laws clearly state that the law forbids any arrangement between the employer and the tipped employee whereby any part of the tips become the property of the employer. What is not stated, however, is that while an employer may make arrangements with the customer that any moneys presented as tips will belong to the employer such as when a customer employs the services of a company which provides banquet services, an employer cannot do so without the customer's consent. To arbitrarily take the public's tips as property of the employer would be and has been recognized as fraud. What I am saying is that Congress has undeniably been mislead and deceived into passing the tip credit provision which violates our federal laws on tips and our constitution. Tips are defined as the sole property of the tipped employee, they should not be credited over to the businesses of this country through tip credit provisions. Our public has a constitutional right to economic freedom and should have the right to determine who benefits from their tips. The tip credit is fraud on our public for it ingores informing the public that their tip will benefit the business and not solely benefit those employees who the public has undeniably attempted to solely benefit.
This crime, the tip credit, goes hand in hand with the illegal employer required tip pooling which is errantly being allowed in this country in defrauding our public. The public's tips which are undeniably intended to benefit those who they have chosen to benefit are being given over to the businesses of this country who clearly have elected to deceive and subsequently defraud the public out of their money instead of actually earning it. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 223
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 02:28 pm: |
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Employees should not be forced to seek employment elsewhere when they encounter employers unwilling to follow the laws of our country. This is not choices. This is breaking the law and expecting people to let you get away with it. Just because many Amercians urgently need employment and may be forced to work for employers who break the law it does not mean that the crimes that these employers are committing are somehow legal now that the business was able to employ persons willing to work for them dispite the crimes. There is no excuse for stealing anothers property.
An excuse that an employee has allowed his employer to steal his tips when he accepted the job is as ridiculaous as employers who claim that their employee agreed to work for $1.00 an hour. Just as there are laws which make agreements to work for $1.00 an hour illegal, namely the minimum wage law of our country, there are laws which make agreements to allow an employer to steal his employees tips illegal, The Fair Labor Standards Act. It clearly states that the law forbids any arrangment between the employer and the tipped employee whereby any part of the tips become the property of the employer. Just as all employers must agree to pay their employees at least the minimum wage which is clearly outlined by our federal laws, employers must agree to allow the tipped employee to retain all his tips as outlined by our federal laws. There can be no agreement to the contrary for either issue. Employees who have accepted jobs requiring that they not retain their tips but must instead give their tips over to an employer established tip pooling arrangement are no less protected by our federal laws than employees who have accepted jobs paying less than the minimum wage requirements of this country. In both cases the employees working for employers who would blatantly disregard our federal laws cannot and have not agreed to such conditions for such conditions are illegal. |
teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 556
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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"Teleburst wrote:
I guess that you're saying that servers shouldn't be compensated by tips at all, since it's those tips that allow the business to pay $2.13 an hour.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying that it is the customer's sole right to determine who should be compensated by their tip, no one elses. As far as our public's tips allowing the business to pay the employees who receive them $2.13 an hour I would like your take on this issue. Why should your customers be deceived into paying the business's payroll expenditures with the tips they beleive are intended to benefit the worker or workers that they have chosen to present tips to"?
There you go. You believe that tips are simply a deceitful way for businesses to run their business.
<shrug>
I'm so tired of you not "getting it". People present their tips to the service staff *through* the server. if they don't wish for the server to share the tip with others, all they have to do is say so.
And that's the final word right there. They have the choice to present their tip to whomever they wish. The fact that 99.999999999999999999% of them don't speaks volumes. And that doesn't keep the other .000000000000000000001% from doing as they wish. |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:58 pm: |
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George, you apparently have too much time on your hands, a really vivid imagination, and a thick skull. Please find another board to clog with your insipid ideas. |
trog3d
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Username: trog3d
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 11:53 am: |
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I've been reading all of George's posts in this thread and am a little perplexed. Isn't George arguing for all tipped employees, including servers?
George wrote: "...employers must agree to allow the tipped employee to retain all his tips as outlined by our federal laws." and he also wrote: "I am saying that it is the customer's sole right to determine who should be compensated by their tip, no one elses."
What is so insipid about those comments?
When I tip, I am not presenting my tip to the service staff through my server. I'm presenting my tip exclusively to the server through my wallet. I didn't know that I could ask the server not to share the tip with anyone else. So the fact that 99.9% of customers don't say anything doesn't mean much if we don't know that we can voice our opinion on this matter. |
scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 316
Registered: 01-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 01:01 pm: |
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Trog3d, your server would not be able to make your meal as pleasant as it is without the aid of his/her support staff. By support staff, I am speaking of the bussers (who depend on tip-outs from the wait staff; they also earn $2.12 an hr. Federal minimum)and in some restaurants the bartender and food runner.
I don't have a bartender or a food runner to tip but we are expected to give the busboy 15% of our tips. For this money, he clears all the dishes, cleans and sets the tables, brings the water and will even box leftovers for ALL of the wait people in the restaurant in addition to bringing ice, tapping the beverages and stocking other supplies as needed.
If you do not want your wait person to pay his/her support staff out of your tip, you must say so and pay them yourself. (Surely you don't expect your busser/ food runner/bartender to work for free?)
George is not a waiter, he's apparently some kind of dealer in Las Vegas. He is certainly not arguing on behalf of restaurant support people who are also tipped employees.
A good busser can and has enabled me to give great service to a larger number of people than I would otherwise be able to accomodate if I had to take on all of his duties as well as my own. A good busser is worth every penny they get. If the busser is slacking off, we wait people do what our guests do when we slack off: We tip out less.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 03:48 pm: |
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George makes the occasional valid argument here and there and the concern on our (the servers) behalf is noted and appreciated. The issue that I have with George is his idea that servers are being ripped off by their employers. His posts are replete with conspiracy theory after consiracy theory - and few (if any), in my considerable experience with restaurants, have any legal or logical basis. As I have previously suggested, if there is some egregious abuse on the part of the employer (financial or otherwise) it needs to be reported. If one simply does not find fair the way in which they are compensated they should simply find work someplace else. Just because something does not seem fair does not make it illegal. Many of the cooks where I work wonder why we servers can make upwards of (upwards - not always) twenty or twenty-five dollars an hour while they make only ten. Those cooks work there purely out of choice, but sometimes the restaurant can offer them no other job - most are Latino and lack the language skills needed to wait tables. Unfair? Nobody forces them to work there and certainly nobody is preventing them from acquiring the requisite language skills for waiting tables. I was a cook for many years, felt I was compensated fairly, and then accepted the challenge (yes, challenge) of waiting tables. Having seen both sides of the restaurant (front-of-house and back-of-house) I can objectively determine that waiting tables justifies more money than cooking. What is fair and not fair, wrong or right seems to boil down to perspective and experience. Then there are always our choices. |
trog3d
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Username: trog3d
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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Thanks for the clarifications, unfortunately, they create additional questions and observations.
There are a couple of restaurants that I frequent where the server takes the order and takes the food to the table along with beverages. There are busboys that buss the tables and I leave them 3 or 4 dollars depending on the number of dishes on the table. If the busboy gets 15% of the server's tip does the server get a percentage of the money I leave for the busboy?
Scarlett made a good point regarding the support staff's role in providing good service. Well, if that is the case, then shouldn't cooks be tipped as well? Without the food there wouldn't be a dining experience at all. |
trog3d
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Username: trog3d
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 05:03 pm: |
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I forgot to add the host/hostess and the dishwasher. They also create a pleasant dining experience. Do they get and/or share in the tipping practice? |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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Typically, all of the tips are left for the server and then it is up to him or her to tip out the other staff (bussers, hosts, etc.) according to the guidelines set forth by the restuarant. The tipping guidelines are typically established with input from the entire staff. Again, these are guidelines and not set amounts - tipping is always voluntary - be it a guest tipping a server or a server tipping other staff. If these guidelines are unacceptable to anyone involved then they should reconsider their place of employment. The servers usually tip out the other staff and not vice-versa because there is somewhat of a hierarchy involved (that is not to say that any one person's job is more important than another's) and, more importantly, it is the server who is ultimately held responsible for the quality of a guest's visit. That is, they will take most of the credit for a good experience and most of the blame for a bad one. As for the dishwasher (a very vital role in any restaurant operation) they are usually paid as a cook would be paid - an agreed upon wage not contigent upon tip income. As for the cooks and the like not recieving tips - their job is simply not as complicated as a server's job. Yes, it is hard work to be sure, but there are only so many variables on the job for a cook. A server's are endless. |
scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 317
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
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Trog3d, unless you put that $3.00 or $4.00 in your busser's hand, your server in all probability kept it as part of his/her tip.
Cooks and dishwashers are paid differently from wait people, but at some restaurants, like the one I worked for previously, the dishwashers shared in the busser's tips. At that restaurant, bussers and dishwashers received $6.50 an hr. to start and we wait people only tipped out 10%. However, the busser didn't remove the plates,or box the leftovers; he only wiped and set the tables. Cooks as Mplsraisin pointed out, receive a much higher rate of pay than other restaurant employees. Again, though, when I worked at an Italian restaurant, if we had an extremely busy night, we used to give the cooks some extra money. This was neither expected nor was it required; it was just our way of thanking them for a good job.
In most restaurants, the hostess receives around $10.00 an hour and is not tipped out, but again, each restaurant is different, and I have heard of some where the hostess shares in the tip out but gets a smaller hourly rate.
Don't worry about your server's tip outs. Just enjoy your meal and tip her as her service warrants. If you notice the busser is working especially hard and you want to throw him a few dollars extra, go ahead. He'll appreciate it. If your meal is super good and you'd like to give your chef some extra moola, again, go ahead. However, in the higher end restaurants, a good sou chef may be earning upwards of $100,000.00 yr.
Your only "jobs" as it were when you dine out are to enjoy your meal and your evening, pay for your meal and tip what your service was worth. Good service = good tip; poor sevice = poor tip.
I've been in the business on and off since I was in high school, and as I said, each restaurant has different policies regarding tip outs. If the tip outs are too high, the waiters vote with their feet and get another job at another restaurant.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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trog3d
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Username: trog3d
Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:23 am: |
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Wow, I automatically assumed that the few bucks I left for the busser would be pocketed by them when they bussed the table. Why would the server take it as part of their tip when they have already been tipped?
I never thought twice about my tips until I came across this website. Now, I'll be sure to give any additional money directly to the person I want to present it to. Thanks for the info. |
teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 557
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
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"Wow, I automatically assumed that the few bucks I left for the busser would be pocketed by them when they bussed the table. Why would the server take it as part of their tip when they have already been tipped"?
Because bussers aren't supposed to touch any money that's on the table. This is for their protection as much as anything. This way, they can't be accused of theft. Unless you indicate otherwise, all tip money should be collected through the server. This doesn't stop you from designating whatever tip you'd like to whichever member of the service staff that you prefer. If you want to tip a busser, it's best to do it directly, hand to hand.
The reason that chefs and cooks normally don't get tipped (except apparently in the Pacific Northwest where it seems to be becoming common) is that those positions aren't "service" position, they're "production" positions, paid at a much higher hourly rate than servers. Until you get to the sous chef level, servers probably make more money than cooks do, but cooks have the ability to get raises and they get valuable training for when *they* become sous chefs and chefs themselves. |
scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 318
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 04:39 pm: |
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Trog3d, as Teleburst said, bussers are forbidden to touch any money left on the table. If one does so, it's assumed that he is stealing from the waitress. He would probably be fired on the spot. (I'm going to stop being PC; I'm a woman, my busser is a man.) How would your busser or your server know that money isn't her tip? We don't always see any credit card tips until after the guest leaves. In some restaurants, credit card tips are given on a weekly or bi-weekly schedule, although this is rare.
If you do tip out your busser, make sure your waitress knows this so she doesn't tip him on your table from the tip you leave for her. (If I know that one of my guests has tipped the busboy, I would certainly put the tip from that guest in another pocket as he has already been tipped for that table.)
If you are in a restaurant whereby a set amount is given to the busser from the waitress's gross sales, it's the waitress who loses out; she will still have to tip the busser on that table. Let's say for example, you leave a generous 20% on a $50.00 tab and also give the busser $4.00 for his work. If your waitress is required to tip her busser 15% of her gross sales, your waitress has to give the busser $1.50 of that $10.00, making the busser's cut $5.50 from your table. The wait person's tip effectively becomes $8.50 before any other support staff is tipped. Did you really mean for the busser to have $5.50 or more than half of what you wanted your waitress to have?
It really makes sense to all parties involved to just leave one tip for your wait person to split among all support staff as perscribed by that restaurant's policy. (This is assuming all of those involved in serving your meal did their jobs properly.)
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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trog3d
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Username: trog3d
Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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Scarlett wrote:
"It really makes sense to all parties involved to just leave one tip for your wait person to split among all support staff as perscribed by that restaurant's policy. (This is assuming all of those involved in serving your meal did their jobs properly.)" and she also wrote: "If your waitress is required to tip her busser 15% of her gross sales, your waitress has to give the busser $1.50 of that $10.00, making the busser's cut $5.50 from your table. The wait person's tip effectively becomes $8.50 before any other support staff is tipped. Did you really mean for the busser to have $5.50 or more than half of what you wanted your waitress to have?"
You're right! I didn't realize that the busser might get tipped more than I intended by my tipping them directly. Thanks for the input. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 224
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Scarlett wrote:
It really makes sense to all parties involved to just leave one tip for your wait person to split among all support staff as prescribed by that restaurant's policy. (This is assuming all of those involved in serving your meal did their jobs properly.)
What you and many others on this board are errantly implying is that customers should leave a tip without designating or recognizing who it is for. Customers should just realize that someone other than they should determine who such moneys belong to. Scarlett please explain who is part of the support staff for I have seen it vary from restaurant to restaurant and from state to state. Many restaurants are currently attempting to have laws passed to where anyone working in the restaurant will be recognized as worker who should share in any tips presented by our public. You see if you are actually successful in convincing customers that they should leave their tip up to someone else to determine what is going to happen to their tip is that it is going to become the businesses. Business owners clearly have all the influence, lawyers and financial resources to get their say on who should be the benefactor of undesiganted money that is left in their establishment. Undesignated money which occurs in any business is legally considered money that which belongs to the business.
Restaurants are not and should not be allowed to determine how our public's tip is distributed for it is the customers sole right to determine whether anyone receives a tip. Restaurants are not and should not be allowed to determine who receives our public's tips for it is generally, but arguably, also the sole right of the customer to determine who should be the recipient of their gratuity. Restaurants are not and should not be allowed to determine what amount an employee receives in tip income for it is the sole right of the customer to determine the amount. These rights have been given over to the customer to prevent businesses from defrauding our public out of their money. We must insure for our public's best interests that their rights concerning tipping are protected.
By supporting a notion that customers should just let someone else determine such matters concerning their tip you and those who support such a notion are defrauding customers into giving up their constitutional rights and at the same time attempting to convince them that they should just let businesses break the law. You guys are unbelievable.
You all must be either totally brainwashed, ignorant beyond help, or lying on behalf of some business owner who has persuaded you to fight for his causes. You cannot expect a customer to not expect that the money he presents to an individual as a tip will not be the sole property of the person to whom he has presented his tip when federal laws clearly state that tips are the sole property of the tipped employee. When I as a customer tip someone, federal laws clearly explain that the individual that I have tipped is clearly a tipped employee. I have been lead to believe by federal laws that the tipped employee that I presented a tip to is the sole property owner of such moneys. If I want others to also share in my tip I must separately tip them so that they may also be viewed as a sole property owner of my tip. I cannot expect waiters or others to read my mind and understand that I am not tipping simply the individual to whom I have presented my tip. I will not allow others who I have not even presented a tip to determine who my tip is intended for even if those trying to determine such matters have influence, lawyers and financial resources. I will not allow my government to strip me of my constitutional rights or treat me with such despotism.
Scarlett wrote:
It really makes sense to all parties involved to just leave one tip for your wait person to split among all support staff as prescribed by that restaurant's policy. (This is assuming all of those involved in serving your meal did their jobs properly.)
What she should say is it really makes sense to just give your tips to the restaurant owner for they are eventually going to get all the benfits anyway. They can make any policies they want even if such policies violate federal laws and our constitution.
CFR 531.52
A tip is a sum presented by a customer as a gift or gratuity in recognition of some service performed for him.
CFR 531.56
Individual tip receipts are controlling. An employee must himself customarily and regularly receive more than $20 a month in tips in order to qualify as a tipped employee. The fact that he is part of a group which has a record of receiving more than $20 a month in tips will not qualify him.
The Fair Labor Standards Act
A tip is the sole property of the tipped employee.
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scarlett
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Username: scarlett
Post Number: 320
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:33 pm: |
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George you are an idiot! I bet you're a Republican too.Goddess knows you're no waiter.
The reason I said what I said was that I am quite sure that trog3d did NOT intend for her bussers to receive a tip that is over half of what she wanted her server to get!
Each restaurant has it's own set of support people; that is why it's always best to leave one tip to your server to be shared out properly. (One exception: If you've had drinks at the bar prior to being seated, it makes sense to tip the bartender separately.) If another member of the serving team has gone out of their way for you, it is always appropriate to seek them out and give them an extra tip.
If as a dining guest you are served by a number of different people and you aren't sure to whom you should present your tip, ASK! That's what my daughter and I did a few years ago when we went to a Japanese steak house where many different people waited on us.
I've also had guests (and been a guest myself) who told me to put their tip "on the side" because they didn't want me to share it with my busser, either because they had taken care of him or they felt he hadn't done anything for their table. the reverse is also true; I know that in places where I've had an especially helpful busser, I've given him an couple of dollars and told him to keep it on the side.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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george
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Username: george
Post Number: 225
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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Great advice Scarlett, and when I pay the boy who mows my yard I am going to tell him to keep it on the side for himself. And when I give money to the guy selling flowers down on the corner I am going to tell him to keep it on the side for himself. And when I tip my taxicab driver I am going to tell him to keep it on the side for himself. And when I tip my car washer I am going to tell him to keep it on the side for himself. I don't care what support people restaurants have. I have my money which I intend to decide how it's disposed of. It's my money, why should I allow others to determine who I intend it for? Why should I be forced to recognize and tip who ever the restaurant includes as their support people? Taxi companies have support people. Hair cut salons have support people. If the person to whom I have presented a tip truely has people who support him then I have no problem with that person doing whatever they want with the tip that I have given them including giving part of my tip to their support staff. I do not accept and will not accept the business who employs a person to whom I have presented a tip determining who should receive my tip when I have taken all the customary actions required by law to tip an individual. There is no law which states that I must verbally explain who my tip is intended for. Federal laws have clearly stated that a tip becomes the property of the person in recognition of whose service it is presented by the customer.
Please note that federal laws do not state that a tip becomes the property of the person in recognition of whose service it is verbally stated by the customer. This law only requires that I as a customer must present a tip to an individual in order for that person to be recognized as the sole property owner of my tip. Nothing is stated that whould indicate to me that I must also tell him to keep it on the side for himself. Do you see amywhere in this law where a tip only becomes the property of the person it's presented when the customer tells the person to keep it on the side for himself?
CFR 531.56 states that an employee must himself customarily and regularly receive more than $20 a month in tips in order to qualify as a tipped employee. Employees who receive part of the tip I present to a worker clearly are not tipped employees on my behalf. They have not themselves received a tip from me and should have no entitlement of my tip because of my actions in presenting a tip. Those other workers who I have not presented my tip to may end up receiving part of my recipient's tip moneys however clearly those others are not legally entitled to my tip for they themselves did not receive it from me. A tip is defined under federal law as a sum presented by a customer. Moneys shared with other workers is not a tip unless the customer actually shares it with other workers. If someone else should share a customers tip with other workers the money is not a sum presnted by a customer in recognition of some service performed for him it is a sum presented by unautorized persons which cannot be considered tips under federal law for it clearly has not been presented to those individuals by the customer.
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jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 148
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 09:44 am: |
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mpisrasin, sorry for the delayed reaction, we had two hurricanes in a row and I was down electric and phone. But Im back now. There was no confussion,(9/25 posts) I knew that we were in agreement. I just addressed you because we seemed to be in the same mode of thinking.I guess I was the one responsible for the confussion.Sorry. |
mplsraisin
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Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:42 pm: |
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Jammie, thanks - sorry to hear about your meteorological misfortune - glad to hear that you're O.K. George: BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. I know that it isn't very nice, but maybe we should all boycott George's posts and hope that he finds another board to pester. I think that we have all exhausted our time and mental resources on this obviously lost cause. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 226
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 04:26 pm: |
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Mplsraisin, not only are you insulting me you are condoning theft. You are no better than the businesses who steal their employee's tips so that they can use their employee's tips as compensation to bring down their payroll expenditures. If you truly want to give your money to the business why don't you just quit trying to convince us that you care about us and just give it directly to the business. We will certainly have no problem not caring about you.
The public is the only lost cause when you allow businesses to defraud them out of their money. Every day more and more of the money our public presents as incentives to employees who provide good service are being stolen by the businesses of this country. Think just a little harder when you foolishly suggest that I am the lost cause. |
george
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Username: george
Post Number: 230
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:50 pm: |
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For those who have been errantly been lead to believe that they have accepted and agreed to employer required tip pooling or tip outs when they accepted the job, I would like you to read what federal laws say about such agreements.
Where an employer is directed by a voluntary assignment or order of his employee to pay a sum for the benefit of the employee to a creditor, donee, or other third party, deduction from wages of the actual sum so paid is not prohibited: Provided, That neither the employer nor any person acting in his behalf or interest, directly or indirectly, derives any profit or benefit from the transaction. In such case, payment to the third person for the benefit and credit of the employee will be considered equivalent, for purposes of the Act, to payment to the employee. (b) No payment by the employer to a third party will be recognized as a valid payment of compensation required under the Act where it appears that such payment was part of a plan or arrangement to evade or circumvent the requirements of section 3(m) or subpart B of this part.
What should be evident is that agreements which transfer part of an employee's income to other employees must be voluntary. There have clearly been provisions included in this law to insure that such transactions are indeed voluntary and not simply being extorted from the employee. Many employers have in the past proven that they would resort to extortion in their attempts to financially benefit from their employee's tips. This law has clearly inluded provisions for insuring that agreements which transfer part of on employees tips to another are truly voluntary.
To insure that tip pooling and tip outs are indeed voluntary it has been provided for that it must also be evident that the neither the employer nor any person acting in his behalf or interest, directly or indirectly, derives any profit or benefit from the transaction and that the agreement is not part of a plan or arrangement to evade or circumvent the requirement that an employer must allow the tipped employee to retain all tips. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 231
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:38 pm: |
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Teleburst wrote:
There you go. You believe that tips are simply a deceitful way for businesses to run their business.
Because I have stated that employer required tip pooling, employer required tip outs and the taking of a tip credit on the tipped employee are all deceitful ways to run a business or as I have more clearly put it, fraud on our public, Teleburst wants to portray me as someone who believes that tips are a deceitful way for businesses to run their business.
While tips have clearly been defined under federal laws as a sum which is presented by a customer as a gift or gratuity in recognition of some service preformed for him, tips are clearly not a business practice to start with. Tips are the right of the public to dispose of their money however they choose. Tips are the public's practice.
While tip pooling, tip outs and the tip credit have mysteriously become business practices it should cause our public to wonder how such matters concerning tips have become business practices in the first place when tips are not defined in any way as business practices. Tips are not and cannot become the business's property that they may establish practices concerning them. Tips are the sole property of the tipped employee. As such, only the tipped employee may determine whether his tips are used for a tip pool. As such, only the tipped employee may determine whether his tips are used to tip out other employees. As such only the tipped employee may determine whether his tips are credited to his employer as a tip credit.
What has happened to the public's practice of tipping when it has so flagrantly been twisted into a business practice? You see Teleburst, you are confusing that which doesn't exist with that which does exist. Tips as a business practice does not exist. I can not be stating that tips are a deceitful way for businesses to run their business because tips are not intended to run a business they are intended to reward and benefit a worker of the public's choosing who the public feels has served them well.
I do not feel tips are deceitful at all. They are the public's graciousness.
Now get this clear Teleburst, Employer required tip pooling, employer required tip outs and employer elected tip credits are fraud on our public.
There is nothing wrong with our public's practice of tipping for it is clearly a practice for them to display their graciousness if they should choose to do so. There is nothing wrong with tipping you fool. There is, however, much wrong with practices which defraud our public into believing that tips are a business practice when the truth of the matter is that tips are undeniably a practice of our public.
I am sorry for such a long post on this issue. My wife believes I could sum it up a lot better by simply telling Teleburst that he's a damn moron for believing anyone who makes their living off tips would be in favor of abolishing tipping.
I, however, feel that it is of the utmost importance to not only inform the public but to also inform the misinformed tipped employees of this country that tips are not a business practice as Teleburst has so ridiculously stated but are infact the public's business. This misconception is the root of the problem which has lead to the injustices which are currently plaguing our public and the tipped employees of this nation. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 232
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 05:14 pm: |
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Just look at all the complaints that are being issued against businesses concerning tips.
Our public is feed up with tip jars. Our public is feed up with service charges which confuse such charges with actual tips. Our public is feed up with hearing that tipped employees deserve a higher percentage of a tip. Our public is feed up with getting submarginal service because the customer no longer can determine for himself who should receive his reward or be denied a reward based on their preformance.
Tipped employees are feed up with sharing their tips with a never ending list of employees who their customer did not present a tip to. Tipped employees are feed up with employers reaping many of the financial benefits of their tips through tip credits. Tipped employees are feed up with their employers deceiving customers into thinking service charges are the same as tips when so clearly they are not legally defined in the same manner. Tipped employees are feed up with the IRS acting like the taxes on tips are going to save our economy when they so blatantly overlook taxing the majority of corporate earnings which could bring in billions more in tax revenues. Tipped employees are feed up with being discriminated against in ways which force them into being the lowest paid employees in our country even below the minimum wage requirements of law.
There are undeniably many injustices being perpetuated against our public and the tipped employees of this nation and there are becoming more and more each day. It is all because employer required tip pooling and the tip credit have errantly been allowed. When you openly allow businesses to break the law and violate our constitution there will be many injustices to follow. |
ramon_santiago
New member
Username: ramon_santiago
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:15 pm: |
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Food and Beverage service is rather unique in that workers are exempt fromt he minimum wage law. Do you believe that the exemption was sought for your benefit, or, that of the owners?
A tip is a gift to the server, it should be predicated upon your ability to serve and satisfy your customer. Ideally, that customer rewards you with a tip in return. Over many years of conditioning, Sleazy owners and management have convinced their employees that the reason that they are paying them so lowly a wage, is that they are expected to make tips. Most do quite well, but, I take offense to now having to become part of your wage scale, responsible for your supplying a portion of your income, for college tutiton, genital piercing, and, choice of vice. I tip for service. I don't wish to pay a tip for you merely showing up to work. Yes, running around and filling beverage orders can be quite hectic and challenging, but, there are many who do a lot more difficult work, and, are not paid much more. Should I tip you because you brought a Mountain Dew to me instead of 7UP, unsweetened tea, instead of sweetened?
Tipping in pre-fascist/socialist Amerika, was an option. It was an expression of gratitude for serivce, in the eye of the tipper, that was well performed. Other times, it was a vain attempt to get to know the server better, to impress them. If you are more than an A cup, you most likely had a "generous" tipper. Tippig was optional. The customary tip was 10%, then 15% and now there are many of you clamoring for 20%. What did you do? The cook prepared the meal, and, if anyone deserves a tip, a reward for excellence, it is the cook. You schlepped the food out, brought the drinks, and, asked if I had "saved room for dessert." Was your service out of the ordinary? Usually not. yet, a charming custom of rewarding service has now become my obligation, and, if I do not fullfill that obligation to your satisfaction, a skin flint dive owner like Soprano can call the cops and have me arrested for theft of services. A cutesy bit of artwork on the menu, stating that large parties now require an abominally large tip is now not a notation, it is an oblgatory contract with whereas's. This is Bush-Kerry's New World Order. The person who didn't tip you is no longer a furgal or cheap customer, he is now a terrorist. Soon a lot of this will be behind us. There is another well planned staged event coming, in the vein of Oklahoma City, and, the WTC, that will put all of your childish, inconsiderate, self-centered babble in perspective. When they do this "Operation Northwoods" event, you won't have to worry about the Table at A-6. When it comes, you weak minded and those like you will be begging for food,water and shelter. You'll be so easily fooled and relieved when FEMA comes along to take you to a relocation camp to care for you. The good thing about it, those of us who are prepared, will survive this attempt to destroy our freedom and our country. Those of you who have chosen to bicker and snipe at your customers, will soon know what has been planned for you, by your friends in both parties in Washington. Incidentally, you whiners, a table of SIX is not a LARGE PARTY. If you had to do real work for a change, you would realize how easy you have it. Yes, my first paying job, at 14, was in a restaurant. I cleaned the range hood and the stove,along with the rest of the kitchen. Later in life, I waited tables. My tips were better than most of my female co-workers. It was service, not obligation, that generated those tips. But, again, your ride is coming to an end. The economy will tank within weeks if not months, and, lets see how you manage then. Be good little doo-bees and get on the FEMA buses, trains, and, trucks, you are going to a camp, but, it isn't like any camp you have known. First, so, where they know where to find you, you will get a new National ID card, you know, the one that you must have, but, the Illegals do not. While you have been watching Survivor, and, American Idol, your government has cook up a scheme to allow illegals to go to any Mexican Consulant and get an ID card for $25. You don't have to use your real name. You, you will have a biometic scan, and, your card will be coded to tell the government if you have bad credit, or, are in any way a malcontent, or, "security" risk. Most of you bought that nonsense about 9-11 being the work of Muslim terrorists. You will be strip searched at the airport and Amtrak stations, your car will be stopped and searched at regular internal check points where you will show your National ID, aka "drivers license." Your car will have a gps satellite tracking system that will report your mileage and other factors, speed, harsh braking, etc, to the government and your insurance company. (look up INTELLIGENT TRANSPORTAION, or HIGHWAYS) You won't pay a GAS TAX any longer, but, don't worry, the price of gas is not going down, the oil companies need record profits, and, they will continue as they have in the past. You will be taxed by that GPS unit and forced to pay monthly. It doesn't matter if you drive an SUV or a Fiesta, you will pay according to the miles you travel. Bummer, there goes that trip to Ft. Lauderdale. If you were smart, you'd take some of your tip money and buy ammo, and, a military style weapon to protect your family, Constitution and own life. But, then, again, your government is counting on you watching Jerry Springer, playing beach volleyball, and, grousing about tips, until the time that they are ready for your removal.
I am an award winning news director. I could care less how the Yankees did this season, or, if the Bears have a good defensive line; this is the only thing that I follow now. I tell you the pace of the New World Order has increased. I am not optimistic on how we will be faring this time next year.
Pax Vobiscum
Dominus Vobiscum |
ramon_santiago
New member
Username: ramon_santiago
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:16 pm: |
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Food and Beverage service is rather unique in that workers are exempt fromt he minimum wage law. Do you believe that the exemption was sought for your benefit, or, that of the owners?
A tip is a gift to the server, it should be predicated upon your ability to serve and satisfy your customer. Ideally, that customer rewards you with a tip in return. Over many years of conditioning, Sleazy owners and management have convinced their employees that the reason that they are paying them so lowly a wage, is that they are expected to make tips. Most do quite well, but, I take offense to now having to become part of your wage scale, responsible for your supplying a portion of your income, for college tutiton, genital piercing, and, choice of vice. I tip for service. I don't wish to pay a tip for you merely showing up to work. Yes, running around and filling beverage orders can be quite hectic and challenging, but, there are many who do a lot more difficult work, and, are not paid much more. Should I tip you because you brought a Mountain Dew to me instead of 7UP, unsweetened tea, instead of sweetened?
Tipping in pre-fascist/socialist Amerika, was an option. It was an expression of gratitude for serivce, in the eye of the tipper, that was well performed. Other times, it was a vain attempt to get to know the server better, to impress them. If you are more than an A cup, you most likely had a "generous" tipper. Tippig was optional. The customary tip was 10%, then 15% and now there are many of you clamoring for 20%. What did you do? The cook prepared the meal, and, if anyone deserves a tip, a reward for excellence, it is the cook. You schlepped the food out, brought the drinks, and, asked if I had "saved room for dessert." Was your service out of the ordinary? Usually not. yet, a charming custom of rewarding service has now become my obligation, and, if I do not fullfill that obligation to your satisfaction, a skin flint dive owner like Soprano can call the cops and have me arrested for theft of services. A cutesy bit of artwork on the menu, stating that large parties now require an abominally large tip is now not a notation, it is an oblgatory contract with whereas's. This is Bush-Kerry's New World Order. The person who didn't tip you is no longer a furgal or cheap customer, he is now a terrorist. Soon a lot of this will be behind us. There is another well planned staged event coming, in the vein of Oklahoma City, and, the WTC, that will put all of your childish, inconsiderate, self-centered babble in perspective. When they do this "Operation Northwoods" event, you won't have to worry about the Table at A-6. When it comes, you weak minded and those like you will be begging for food,water and shelter. You'll be so easily fooled and relieved when FEMA comes along to take you to a relocation camp to care for you. The good thing about it, those of us who are prepared, will survive this attempt to destroy our freedom and our country. Those of you who have chosen to bicker and snipe at your customers, will soon know what has been planned for you, by your friends in both parties in Washington. Incidentally, you whiners, a table of SIX is not a LARGE PARTY. If you had to do real work for a change, you would realize how easy you have it. Yes, my first paying job, at 14, was in a restaurant. I cleaned the range hood and the stove,along with the rest of the kitchen. Later in life, I waited tables. My tips were better than most of my female co-workers. It was service, not obligation, that generated those tips. But, again, your ride is coming to an end. The economy will tank within weeks if not months, and, lets see how you manage then. Be good little doo-bees and get on the FEMA buses, trains, and, trucks, you are going to a camp, but, it isn't like any camp you have known. First, so, where they know where to find you, you will get a new National ID card, you know, the one that you must have, but, the Illegals do not. While you have been watching Survivor, and, American Idol, your government has cook up a scheme to allow illegals to go to any Mexican Consulant and get an ID card for $25. You don't have to use your real name. You, you will have a biometic scan, and, your card will be coded to tell the government if you have bad credit, or, are in any way a malcontent, or, "security" risk. Most of you bought that nonsense about 9-11 being the work of Muslim terrorists. You will be strip searched at the airport and Amtrak stations, your car will be stopped and searched at regular internal check points where you will show your National ID, aka "drivers license." Your car will have a gps satellite tracking system that will report your mileage and other factors, speed, harsh braking, etc, to the government and your insurance company. (look up INTELLIGENT TRANSPORTAION, or HIGHWAYS) You won't pay a GAS TAX any longer, but, don't worry, the price of gas is not going down, the oil companies need record profits, and, they will continue as they have in the past. You will be taxed by that GPS unit and forced to pay monthly. It doesn't matter if you drive an SUV or a Fiesta, you will pay according to the miles you travel. Bummer, there goes that trip to Ft. Lauderdale. If you were smart, you'd take some of your tip money and buy ammo, and, a military style weapon to protect your family, Constitution and own life. But, then, again, your government is counting on you watching Jerry Springer, playing beach volleyball, and, grousing about tips, until the time that they are ready for your removal.
I am an award winning news director. I could care less how the Yankees did this season, or, if the Bears have a good defensive line; this is the only thing that I follow now. I tell you the pace of the New World Order has increased. I am not optimistic on how we will be faring this time next year.
Count your blessings with every tip that you receive. Have empathy for those who have less than you, and, pray.
Pax Vobiscum
Dominus Vobiscum |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 337
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 11:24 pm: |
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Huh? Can I have some of what you're smoking? It must be pretty strong.
I've been an anti fascist radical all my life, as were my parents and grandparents before me, none of which has any bearing on my skill or abilities as an excellent wait person.
My dad, who knew both Woody Guthrie and Pete Segar from his work as a labor union organiser taught us to tip 20% for good service back in the 1950's in a rural upstate NY town. In fact, "Uncle" Pete was a frequent guest at our home when I was a child. I also went to day camp with Arlo Guthrie.Those things, while interesting, have NO BEARING on my skills or lack thereof.
As I understood it, the objection origianally wasn't to the SERVICE but to the food. All I know is what I read in the papers. I wasn't there.
I also earn good money from the tips my hard work and consientious attention to my guests brings me.They realise that a good server does more than "just schlepping the food to the table."
Maybe you shouldn't eat out, the profits made from your meal only feed capitalist pigs after all.
~Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came!~
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mplsraisin
New member
Username: mplsraisin
Post Number: 36
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 03:42 am: |
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Ramon....you are so full of crap that I don't even know where to start. I'll take you on when I have the energy as I just got home from busting my a** to make people like you happy at my bartending job. May I ask, are you sane? Under the supervision of a therapist or other mental health professional? Just curious. More soon....I promise. |
jennifer
New member
Username: jennifer
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 01:56 pm: |
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Ramon, have you tried AA or NA? You sound drunk or high. |
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