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elizabethtx
New member
Username: elizabethtx
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 03:02 am: | 
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Pleas tell me successfel ways that servers have confronted customers about a lousy tip that was left!! Is this an acceptable practice in your restaurant and does management support this?? |
nic121882
New member
Username: nic121882
Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:24 am: |
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never? |
linda
New member
Username: linda
Post Number: 181
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 09:12 am: |
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I have never and would never confront a customer on a bad or no tip.
If this person because a "regular" at the restaurant and continued to not tip or low tip all the servers would know that (word gets around about customers) this customer does not leave a tip. My guess is that the service for this customer would be minimal. Servers would concentrate more time with other guests that would be tipping.
As a server I realize that I also work for the "house". So despite that some people do not tip or tip very low...I still treat the guest with respect. |
breeze16
New member
Username: breeze16
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 09:32 am: |
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IMHO it's not in good taste to confront a customer about a tip. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 431
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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About 20 years ago I waited on a a table, they were very happy, everything went fine. It was a small work party.The person picking up the tab was not a regular the rest were. He left me about a 8% tip, on a rather large check. I asked one of the guests if something was wrong with their service. I happend to know this guy pretty well. I did this out of earshot from the rest of the crew. I was really curious as to why such a low tip. He assured me that the service was great and couldnt understand himself. He also told me he was glad I told him, so he could make it right. Also his wife waits tables and tips coming into his house makes it possible for their child to attend college. She would have been furious if she knew that a server was under tipped at their favorite watering hole.
I know alot of you might not agree, I handled it tactfully. I didnt run after them screaming in the parking lot.Had I not known this man on a personal level I wouldnt have asked. |
avalanche
New member
Username: avalanche
Post Number: 68
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 04:10 pm: |
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I only have a few times. lol
Just so you know, this table took up all my tables and one in each server’s stations next to me. Also, was there for 4 hours.
One time I had a big party and they wanted drinks and food on separate checks. One of the ladies that were in the conversation was a server, so, I didn’t have a problem with this at all. I separated the checks and showed it to them and said make sure I did this correctly, still holding the checks. One of the ladies said yes and took them from me and I said one sec I need to add the gratuity (18 top). She, the server said, “Don’t worry about it”. Of course when a server says this you won’t disagree, so I gave them the checks. They started the 20 minute process of throwing all their cash in a pile. I finally got the cash and they gave me the, “it’s all you” saying. I said thanks and went to the computer to close out and they left about 5%! I went back to the table and knelt near the so called server chick. Talking to the 3 or 4 ladies that had told me not to worry, I said the bill is blah blah and I counted to be cash to be blah blah, “did I count correctly?” she said, “Yes” and said, “Why?” So I said, “Well, you said I didn’t need to worry about the gratuity and I didn’t. Gratuity would have been 18% and you left 5%”. Then the server chick says, “What” and grabs her purse, then the lady that handed me the money says, “Don’t worry” to the server chick” they walk down to the front and was like uhh oohh. Sure enough they were talking to the GM. I knew what would happen next so I decided to go out with a bang. I went up to the front and told them off and quit.
All I have to say is it’s not worth it to tell off a table. Just remember the good comes with the bad. We all have that table no matter where we work. We will also have the one that tips 100% or gives you that c-note at Christmas.
Remember, karma is a bitch. Don’t worry about that bad tipper, they will get hit by a train on the way to cash in their winning lottery ticket.
Av out
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 434
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:06 am: |
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AV, I have not confronted every table that has left me a lousy tip. I get what you are saying, in this situation I felt comfortable doing so.
Come to find out the person paying the bill had the "Ill never see her again" attitude. Where the others worked across the street (this guy was a big wig from out of town) were regulars and good tippers. They always got great service, even when we were busy. You know you give some love and you get some love.
I agree with you, that you have to pick your battles wisely. Sometimes its just not worth it. |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 132
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:16 am: |
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Never approach a customer regarding a bad tip. In my present job, you would be fired. It's happened.
But, I have learned from a manager that restaurants who do not auto-grat large parties have the option of asking the table if you can apply the tip for the customer. 70% of the customer will give a % to add so you can add the grat before allowing the customer to sign. This is a great idea.
How many of you ask this to your large parties?
Peace |
nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:50 am: |
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Applebee's managers would never let us do this. I'm not sure why, they just won't. I think it just perpetuates the mentallity of, "Oh, it's just Applebee's, I don't have to leave a good tip."
The other thing is that at Applebee's we have a much higher number of cash-paying guests. Unless we alter their bill and write the percentage of gratuity on the check, they wouldn't be "signing" for anything and I wouldn't get any auto-grat.
I have found that most guests love auto-grat because it's one less thing they have to worry about when paying the check. At Applebee's, the people don't even factor in the tip and we get around 10% with large parties more often than not.
"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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breeze16
New member
Username: breeze16
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 02:56 pm: |
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A little off topic, but how would you respond to: "Is this enough of a tip?"
I had a customer this weekend ask me this question. The tip was a little more than 15%, so I just said yes. (I was busy, and I didn't have time to really think about what to say) But how would you respond? I asked a few co-workers and most didn't offer much advice. One suggested that I give a huge speech "Normally customers tip between 10 and 20%, blah blah blah"
I want something clever, short and to the point. Any ideas? |
avalanche
New member
Username: avalanche
Post Number: 75
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 02:16 am: |
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Breeze, I get this question from time to time because I work at a place that gets a lot of people from “out of town”.
“Is this enough?”
“I have two kids to feed, it’s never enough” then I smile and walk away. You have to smile and walk away or it won’t work.
If they have the balls to say that to you, then they should expect a response.
Av
PS if it's like 20%+ don't be stupid of course…lol
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breeze16
New member
Username: breeze16
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:49 am: |
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av: heehee that sounds good, I think I may try that. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 438
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Simple Breeze, "20% and upward is proper, for good service." Hey, if they ask educate them. |
grimo
New member
Username: grimo
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 08:15 am: |
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What happened to 15%? Did the service get better? |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 439
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 09:38 am: |
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Grimo, start high, you can alway come down.
Yes, 15% is acceptable, 20% is not uncommon for good service.
"Grimo, would you like a 15% raise or a 20% raise?"
"No, boss, just give me a 10% raise because my job performance hasnt been that much better." |
esalerno
New member
Username: esalerno
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 02:09 am: |
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I'm not a server- but doesn't it depend on the city too? I live in NYC and the cost of living is high. %20 percent is a little on the low side for here. |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 08:55 am: |
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Not really esalerno. The cost of food and wine are drastically different in NYC, allowing the 15% to be more than the 15% in another small town restaurant.
Just a guess :
Filet in NYC = 42.00
Filet in Boontown = 28.00
Peace
Ed |
avalanche
New member
Username: avalanche
Post Number: 86
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 02:22 am: |
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in NYC or here in OC (Orange County)= Prime or Kobe
in Boontown = Choice or Select
lol
Av |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 08:42 am: |
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Hehe...8)
Peace |
esalerno
New member
Username: esalerno
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 01:41 am: |
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So are you saying that since the food cost more that customers shouldn't worry about tipping more? That the difference in price of NYC food will take care of the fact that the servers' cost of living is high when factored into the percentage of the tip? Is the ratio that parallel? Just checking. Cause I've read in places that you should tip higher here.
I know it sounds dumb, but I never worked in a restaurant so I don't know. It's been quite some time since I've eaten out in any other place too.
Thanks. |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 177
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 08:34 am: |
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If good service is 15%, why would I tip 20% in NYC if the service was good? Because they are located in NYC? Can I tip 10% to people who work in Oklahoma with the cost of living being cheaper? How is a customer who travels know the percentage to tip based on cost of living?
Without being able to answer those questions, we should stick to the sevice standards of 15%-20% of meal bought. It all works out.
Peace |
hodders
New member
Username: hodders
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 01:23 pm: |
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I have to say I enjoy listening to some of you go off on one! If someone is prepared to leave a tip (this is a tip, not a service charge or addition or pre-added gratuity) then it is a tip and someone's gift (for whatever you may think of it, that it is) isn't enough for you you shouldn't have any of it. Do you know what you sound like (Oh 13% isn't enough etc. etc)
You don't seem to understand that a tip is a reciprocal action i.e. you give good service, you get a tip. and unless you have a notice on your front door of "We expect each and everyone of you to fork out an extra 15% tonight regardless of what form of service you get" you should all be grateful for a tip of any sort. And 8% of a sizeable bill is still a sizeable tip!
Now I'm sure many of you will want to take bits and pieces of this post and try to argue against individual sentences so fine, but the overall picture of which you miss and are certainly giving any regular restaurant goer who visits this forum is as follows: -
You do not seem to understand that people who go to restaurants probably have jobs that do not include a "compulsary tip" and as such budget their lifestyles on that income (And yes I'm sure there are exceptions to the rules but that is irrelevent here).They therefore will (as I do) find it difficult to equate their lifestyle choices to your wage expectations. They do not get paid any more money for performing above and beyond the call of duty, just satisfaction of a job well done. (No, I'm not totally convinced by this one either!!)For us it feels as simply another bill on top of the massive amount of additional tax/payments we seem to have to make day-in day-out. Equally so if this extra money was added to the restaurant prices at the start then each and every customer would have the free choice (for that is the basis on which most of the laws of the western world are made surely) of where and what to eat. In this case any tip left will be a genuine representation of how good the service has been!
Yes - I know that many of you will then say that it will put restaurants out of business, but the bill will then be a transparent one and truely subject to free market economics.
I'm sure that this will not be a view enjoyed by many posters but is a major view of a majority of people who I know who eat is restaurants.
Maybe a simple way to get round this problem is to actually abolish the use of the word "tip" This payment has ceased to be a tip and is now a "universal service charge standard". Maybe you should all be happy with this definition and stop pretending that it has anything anymore to do with the quality of service given.
Just a though for you.
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teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 851
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 02:25 pm: |
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You don't seem to understand that a tip is a reciprocal action i.e. you give good service, you get a tip".
You don't seem to acknowledge this yourself.
Also, since most people are aware of the social convention of tipping, to claim that it "seems like another tax" is a little disengenuous. Yes, a tiny minority of people don't understand the concept, or understand the economic reasons behind the system (from menu pricing concerns to the low wages that servers receive) and an even smaller minority of people know these principles but refuse to "pay their fair share", but that doesn't indict the system that's evolved.
Don't you realize that raising the prices to reflect market wages for servers DOES become a compulsary tip? Why would you argue for such a thing?
Yes, the bill would then be "transparent" but not subject to the vagaries of level of service. It will matter little what kind of service you actually receive, since you are paying a fixed bill. You will certainly see a combination of reduced service staff and a substantial hike in price of menu items. This can't be good for the consumer, who now has more of a direct opportunity to reward or penalize service.
Please reread the comments of most servers on this forum. We actually recommend tipping "appropriately". We don't recommend tipping poor service at normal levels, but we also advocate tipping better than average for better than average service.
Finally, in my particular case, 8% of ANY check will will result in a zero tip for me, due to my tipout. In the case of most servers, it will mean more like a 3-5% tip, and this is clearly uacceptable if you want people to actually stay in the field (or come into the field in the first place).
Oh yeah, if your lifestyle choice means you can only afford a Ford Escort, you don't have the right to have a Mercedes handed to you for the same price. In terms of dining, there are numerous choices that you can make that will fit your "lifestyle choice". You aren't forced to eat in an establishment that offers tip-subsidized full service, nor are you forced to spend huge amounts of money on a meal. You want to play, you've got to pay ("got to pay" being a figure of speech"). |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 484
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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Hodders, for those hourly workers who do go above and beyond. I do think at some point they do expect to be compensated, in the form of a pay raise, or promotion. Working is a fact of life for most, some have better work ethics than others. (that includes restaurant help too) Hopefully those are the ones who rise above.
When I made this "lifestyle choice" it was to earn income. I dont just expect people to throw money at me for showing up. I try hard to please people, I really like my job most of the time. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 485
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 03:11 pm: |
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Hodders, for those hourly workers who do go above and beyond. I do think at some point they do expect to be compensated, in the form of a pay raise, or promotion. Working is a fact of life for most, some have better work ethics than others. (that includes restaurant help too) Hopefully those are the ones who rise above.
When I made this "lifestyle choice" it was to earn income. I dont just expect people to throw money at me for showing up. I try hard to please people, I really like my job most of the time. |
goldenfoxx
New member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 04:21 pm: |
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Good response Teleburst, exactly what needed to be said.
To hodders; 8% is a crappy tip. The server will barely be able to see any of it after tip out and taxes. Dont fool yourself.
Definations according to goldenfoxx;
Frugal: being conservative in your spending habits, ie making your dollar go as far as possible.
Cheap: trying to get more that what you are actually paying for, usually at someone elses expense.
Tell me Hodders, which category do you fall into?? |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 184
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 07:47 am: |
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Not much I can say with all the good responses from Tele, Gold and Jammie, but one thing we have overlooked.
Employers are not just saving money on Labor by paying waiters less money.
More importantly, the desire to SELL is the reason tipping is better than hourly. As a waiter, not only are you going to get great service, but I'm also going to suggest things on the menu to make sure you have enjoyed the food/wine.
If I'm paid hourly, or my tips are always 8%, then I'm going to steer you to fast food so you can be in and out as quick as possible. This will in turn cause the restaurant to go under, but I thought it would be fair to explain another reason why tipping is better for the customer.
Peace |
hodders
New member
Username: hodders
Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 08:51 am: |
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I was wondering whether you'd actually bother reading the post or launch instantly into another diatride about what you percieve you deserve. Yet again you cannot differentiate between what a tip is and what an overall charge is.
To begin with I am going to point out I am not against the concept of tipping and indeed agree with it. What I have real trouble with is both your definition of tipping and the expectation that you should get a specific level of tip.
A tip is related to the percieved value of service given, and that is NOT what you think, it is what the customer thinks (you can call them guests or whatever you like but in the end they are the customer, you haven't invited them round on tuesday night for beer and pizza)the quality of the service they have recieved is. However many times you may rant about it, a "tip" is a reciprocal payment for service GIVEN and not a figure that should be pre-ordained before you sit down.
If you did a magnificent job every time then you would recieve the level of tips you seem to think you deserve. Indeed there have been regular times where we have dined out and tipped well above the norm for excellent service. But it seems that you don't. If so don't complain about why someone didn't make a choice not to give you more money that is technically voluntary, decide what you could perhaps do to do a better job. Of course there are going to be people that don't tip (so be it) but surely you should HAVE EARNED a tip not expect it.
Following on from this vein, your level of service SHOULD be the same whether you think you are going to get a tip or not.
I think your problem is one of definition. I am not argueing about the economic backgrounds of employing staff - Indeed I know of a restaurant that charges its staff to wait on the tables in the restaurant in return for them being able to keep the tips they recieve. ( And yes this was a few years ago and legislation may have changed)
However, what I am saying is that maybe it is time to accept that the amount of money you want to recieve as a "tip" is no longer anything of the suchlike.
It is a "service charge" and if you make it clear to everybody coming into a restaurant that this is what they will have to pay then fine - they have a choice.
I appreciate what you are saying about then not getting a good service then, but if you are expecting a 15% tip anyway why is that different?
In the end surely it is the restaurant's job to employ the best staff who give the best service and then who attract more people to their restaurant and then get paid the best wage! (this includes the whole upselling thing, recommending wine etc) Tell me why this model will not work?
And in the end to Goldenfoxx:
8% is a good "tip" it may not be what you wanted but is a decent %. I tell you what, why don't you add an 8% tip to everything you buy over the next week and see what a "crappy tip" it is.
I'm not saying that good service doesn't deserve more, and I am convinced it does, you just are not able to see that perhaps the people who should be really included in this definition are those who are actually going to have to pay it.
Any in terms of your definitions - surely cheap is expecting more for your work than you deserve. If your levels of service are below what the customer expects then you shouldn't get a tip. That has nothing to do with being cheap or frugal.
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nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 09:38 am: |
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Hodders, you act like none of us go out to eat. Of course we know what paying 8%/15%/20% of a bill is. We work in the industry and don't think it's a big deal. You talk about this 8% argument like we have no idea what it's like being a customer. Well, that's just not true.
I could turn this around and say, "Work a couple weeks at my job and tell me that 8% is good enough for you." Because of what the average tip is from the general public, 8% is an insult to my ability as a server and is also financially hurtful.
"I appreciate what you are saying about then not getting a good service then, but if you are expecting a 15% tip anyway why is that different?"
When did any of us say that we think we should get at least 15% for substandard service? There have been times where I know I've f'ed up and I know I don't desserve 20% or even 15%. That's fine with me. But that was mostly at the beginning of my waitressing "career." Now, I've been in it long enough that I know I'm pretty good at it and I am not substandard.
And what "model" are you proposing? I don't really understand what you're asking us.
"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 09:51 am: |
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8% is a good "tip" it may not be what you wanted but is a decent %. I tell you what, why don't you add an 8% tip to everything you buy over the next week and see what a "crappy tip" it is.
Funny, I'm paying 7.5% in taxes on everything I buy, so I'm feeling the hit already. Let's see...what am I getting for that. Umm, defense for my well being, government programs to support my needs if times get tough, streets, freedoms, etc. Wow. I'm getting a service and I'm being forced to pay. Go figure.
Hodders, I'm missing your point on what your basically saying. Are you agreeing to disagree? Are you mad because people on this board complain about not getting 15% on good service?
I think it's the latter.
Look, we all complain when things happen that we feel should happen. All of the servers here on the board have stated that if service is poor, the tip should be poor. 8% is a poor tip. Tipping someone 8% on good service is being cheap because your taking the service given at a lower cost.
If you want to tip less, go to a cheaper restaurant. Not only will your food be cheaper, but the tip% will be lower because of the check average.
Any troll on this board who is trying to warrent a reason of tipping a lower amount with GOOD service is being cheap. Fact. No arguement.
Why do we expect 15% with good service? Because it's the norm. It's been imbedded in our souls as servers because it's happened for the past 50 years to anyone who works in the industry. If the norm was 10% for good service, we would expect 10% for good service and 15% for great service, but that is not how the system has worked itself out to be.
It's called Market Value folks. If being a truck driver pays 10.00 an hour, I can expect the same wage for whatever truck driving job I apply for. Those who pay higher require better drivers and those who pay crappy will be newbie drivers.
If tips AND PPA are high in a restaurant, then the owners/managers have the ability of selecting their servers because EVERYONE would be dying to work for a restaurant where they can expect to make 200.00 a night. Those without the experience will need to gain the skills first at restaurants with lower PPA, but tips are standard through-out the USA, 15% for good service, 20% for great service.
Got a problem? Move to another planet.
Peace |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 852
Registered: 06-2003
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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"In the end surely it is the restaurant's job to employ the best staff who give the best service and then who attract more people to their restaurant and then get paid the best wage! (this includes the whole upselling thing, recommending wine etc) Tell me why this model will not work"?
Oh, it will work - it just means that you will pay more for your food than you currently do.
Once again, I'll repeat what has been said many times:
In the restaurant business, in order to maintain the cost model that provides a reasonable profit, you have to sell $3 of food for every $1 pre-tax profit that you generate. This is a fairly standard and time-tested measurement that takes into account all of the expenses that a restaurant incurs, from energy costs to waste, payroll, insurance, lease, licensing fees, etc. If you demand that the restaurant pays wages even close to comparable to what people are making now, prices will have to go up between 25% (to be conservative and assuming some cuts in service staff) to 35% or more.
If restaurants were total cash cows and high margin businesses, one could argue that it would be cool if they took less of a profit to benefit the consumer. But the WalMart approach doesn't work because of the volume handled by such "big box" operations. While WalMart type operations might be able to be very successful running a 3-5% profit because of their extreme volume and combined resources, for most restaurants, this would be a disincentive to continue running operations as a single short term downturn in the economy would sink them. And yet, the average profit of restaurants isn't much higher than that in the first place (5-7%), which is why so many restaurants fail in the first place.
Another problem with changing the system is that the tipping system is engrained in American system. Despite the few naysayers here, the vast majority of diners not only are aware of the standards (15% for average service with more or less based on better or worse service), they also generally tip appropriately. It's pretty much a bell curve, just like most things in life. There is a dip on both ends of tipping too low and tipping too high, with most people falling right in the middle. To try to change these habits wholesale would simply be more of a problem than it's worth, especially when you consider that changing the system would have far more downsides than upsides. The only real upside would be paying a bill that's exact. But if you had to pay 10 to 20% MORE than you're paying now simply because you think that the business should be paying service staff directly, it seems like a "cutting off the nose to spite the face" sort of situation. The downsides are more numerous.
I also happen to think that on a psychological level, most guests like the idea of being able to reward good service directly. Part of this is because they're used to it but part of it is the "feel good" aspect of it. I can't prove it because I haven't done any studies of it, or asked that many people directly, so take this simply as an opinion of someone who has literally waited on thousands of people over the years. I'm not saying that some people might not like the hassle of having to take the extra step of figuring out a tip, but I doubt that the number of such people is very great. For most, it's second nature. Also, it's a "feel good" thing for servers, who appreciate the occasional overly generous patron. We don't demand that, but those peple basically subsidize those on the other end of the spectrum and we are grateful when someone does that.
Finally, my average after tip out is currently about 12% (my restaurant has an extremely high tip out which is not "normal"), which means that my average in my mass-market churn and burn restaurant is about 19% (and I wait on between 40 and 75 people a shift). And these figures are PRETAX totals, not the final total, so it's a little conservative, since many people seem to tip of the final bill. This means that I get a pretty good distribution of income and class levels due to the fact that my restaurant is an extremely high volume operation (we serve over 600 people a day) I think that this shows that most people know how to tip correctly. In my previous fine dining situation, the percentage was pretty close to that as well (we only opened for dinner and we served between 60 and 175 people a shift). Of course, with a 3% tipout, I retained more of my tips. Also, the income and class strata was far mre focused and narrow. I think that these numbers support my contention that the system is a satisfactory win/win situation for all involved. |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:47 am: |
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Teleburst, I don't think anything can be said better than the explaination you just showed everyone here.
Thank you.
Peace |
nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 321
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 02:16 pm: |
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Teleburst should be a university professor on The Art of Tipping 101.
Voz said: "If you want to tip less, go to a cheaper restaurant. Not only will your food be cheaper, but the tip% will be lower because of the check average."
I have to disagree with this statement, or maybe I misunderstood you. The tip percentage shouldn't be lower at establishments with lower prices. The tip amount is going to be lower because your food doesn't cost as much. For example, I work at Applebee's. I don't like the fact that people think they should tip a lower percentage "just because it's Applebee's." I believe that tip percentages are applicable anywhere you go, regardless of how much your food costs. Many people on this board ask, "Why tip out on the cost of food? Serving is all the same." Well, that's not nessessarily true. Generally, when you go out to eat, the level of service will match the price of the food. If you disagree, that is why you have the freedom to adjust the tip (or in extreme cases speak to management). For example:
Applebee's: 20% x $40 = $8
Upscale Place: 20% x $100 = $20
Percentages are basically a round-about thing for all restaurants, but what will vary are your food prices and level of service provided. Like I said, restaurants will generally train their employees to give a level of service that is appropriate for the tone of their restaurant. The tone of a restaurant is discided by the atmosphere, menu selection and the prices. It's true that you will probably get a much less formal server at Applebee's than you will at Tratoria Expensivco around the corner, but you're also getting lower quality food and a less formal atmosphere. The service matches that. I think percentage amount should generally stay the same wherever you go...
"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 322
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 02:19 pm: |
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discided = decided
I'm having a very blonde day. My appologies.
"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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avalanche
New member
Username: avalanche
Post Number: 113
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 02:41 pm: |
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I'm Blonde, what are you saying :P
"We, as servers, have to be conversational wizards at our jobs, to be able to time a conversation to end at the appropriate time." by nuvola09
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 488
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 09:55 pm: |
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Hodders, lets say you go around town and put an additional 8% on top of everything you buy. Now reduce your wage to $2.13 an hour, how does that work for ya?
As others have pointed out we pay sales tax, mortages,and dine out too. These tips are not just mad money , to spend on crack and booze. This is what we live on, our paycheck. That is why we are so passionate about our income. Dont you take yours seriously? If your income were up for debate at every dollar earned, you may have a slightly altered oppinion. 8% is not a good tip. Not one of us expect none other than to earn it. |
scarlett
New member
Username: scarlett
Post Number: 580
Registered: 01-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Just one question hodders. If your employer told you "You did a great job this week, but I'm not paying you." how would you react?
~"Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came."~
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vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 192
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 07:40 am: |
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I have to disagree with this statement, or maybe I misunderstood you. The tip percentage shouldn't be lower at establishments with lower prices. The tip amount is going to be lower because your food doesn't cost as much.
That's what I ment. Sorry about that. Percentage will stay the same, but the amount will be lower because the amount of food will be lower.
Thanks for clearing that up... 8)
Peace |
hodders
New member
Username: hodders
Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Sorry all for not being able to come back immediately - very busy here!
Thankyou all for replying - it certainly gives a good picture from the other side of the fence so to speak.
One by one then...
nuvola09 - I've never said that I don't recognise that you don't go out to eat or that good service deserves a good tip. What my beef is is the opinion of a majority on this forum that a sizeable % tip should be de rigour for a standard service (not a sub-standard service which I hope to God you all agree deserves less) I have never said I am against a large tip for a great service, what I keep saying is that it is a "tip" and as such should be decided by the diner, and should in no way detract from the quality of service they are given.
vozveratu - I think this is probably the crux of things - "its the norm" - What I am saying is perhaps everybody is satisfied with claiming this amount for a "standard" of service whereas some people my feel that this is an amount that should be paid to "good" service. I think it is an arguement that is never going to end!
teleburst - thankyou for that - Actually, having read it a few times it does make sense - However I think you are getting closer to my thoughts i.e. people like being able to reward good service, and I do, and everyone I know does, and we pay good tips. But I do feel that a good tip should be paid for good service and I think this is where we all inherently differ.
For you all, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the marketplace for servers (again, trying to find a generic term) relies on a nationwide understanding and acceptance of an additional "tip". In fact it has become so ingrained that it is now viewed by all those who work in the industry as now something that has become an entitlement. Here is where our paths differ (and it may be a cultural one as we pay more for the food and drink part of the meal here and equally don't have such a system of passing down tips etc) because I have not had this ingrained into me. I've worked behind a bar for a straight wage, no tips expected. I've been to a restaurant where the service has been amazing and we've tipped close to 20% (WAY above the national norm which is around 10% for good service) but I have equally had experiences which have depressed me wholeheartedly and I have begrudged leaving a tip at all. This is not a "standard" service but a downright terrible one.
All I am saying, and amongst the cultural differences and slightly Trojan outlook of your industry is that perhaps having an acceptance of a 15% tip for standard service IS stoppping people giving that higher level of service.
its a debate I'm sure will run on and I'm not too sure we will ever see eye to eye on it but I do enjoy learning a little, debating a little, even argueing a little.
Feel free to let me know where to go for a service that outshines all others!
Hodders |
nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 356
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
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"All I am saying, and amongst the cultural differences and slightly Trojan outlook of your industry is that perhaps having an acceptance of a 15% tip for standard service IS stoppping people giving that higher level of service."
From my point of view (as a server and a diner), that is not true. In fact, it's completely backwards. What you're assuming is that there is a nationwide acceptance, which there is not. Not all people recognize this 15% standard, I get crappy tips all the time based on education and class level, etc. But most educated and cultured people know how much to tip in this country. And if they get service that it good or beyond good, they tip 15% or 20% and up. Having an unofficial standard of 15% does not make me work any less. If it were an official standard and it was automatically tacked on to all my table's check, then I would probably not work as hard because I know that most people would not tip on top of that. When the tip is at the guest's discretion, they are able to give me as much as they like. Therefore, I work hard to please them so they feel like I deserve 20% (or more).
You imply that you're not from the US. You didn't say that in the previous posts. This is why you don't understand our tipping standards. You worked as a bartender for a long time outside the US? How much were you paid per hour? Most places outside the US pay servers and bartenders a substantial hourly wage. We are paid sub-minimum wages and often do not get paychecks, or our paychecks are around $20.00. If people in this country actually did what you proposed in your earlier posts, we would be flat broke and no one but 15-year-olds would work as servers. 8% is not a good tip. It hurts us financially and insults our performance.
You say, "we pay more for the food and drink part of the meal here". Your opinion that 8% is a good tip comes from your experience with the service industry in your country. It's a totally different practice over here. And don't you think that it could work better? Instead of you being forced to pay more for the food, instead you can decide for yourself whether or not the service was up to the "unofficial" 15% tip. If yes, tip at least that or more. If not, tip 10% and speak to management to let them know your experience wasn't good.
"Some people have yoga, I have waitressing." - unknown
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rachael9876
New member
Username: rachael9876
Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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Nuvola,
What franchise do you work for? |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 468
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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"All I am saying, and amongst the cultural differences and slightly Trojan outlook of your industry is that perhaps having an acceptance of a 15% tip for standard service IS stoppping people giving that higher level of service."
Just as it's wrong to assume a general prejudice on race, it's also wrong to assume every server is unhappy with 15% and will only give standard or sub-standard service because we know we're going to make 15% anyway.
As Nuvola09 has stated, there are servers who take pride in the job, not for the money, but to increase customer base and increase sales by great service.
I walk into work wanting to make money (who doesn't), but I go in with determination to make alot of money. The only way to do that is better my chances by selling, smoozing, and giving great service. If I'm stiffed, I grumble under my breathe. If I'm tipped, I cheer. |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 04:02 pm: |
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"I walk into work wanting to make money (who doesn't), but I go in with determination to make alot of money. The only way to do that is better my chances by selling, smoozing, and giving great service. If I'm stiffed, I grumble under my breathe. If I'm tipped, I cheer".
And it's REALLY hard to get over early tables that stiff you even though you've given them your best efforts. Puts a pall over the rest of the evening. IT wold be like going into an office job and your boss telling you, "We're only to give you 3/4th of your salary this week, even though we know what a great job you do". I wonder if this would affect some peoples' job performance. |
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