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blisterfoot99
New member
Username: blisterfoot99
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 06:43 pm: | 
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I realize I might not get an unbiased answer from you guys, but...
I generally tip 20% on a meal bill, less on a bar tab. But what are the guidelines for tipping on the alcohol portion of a meal bill? If we only have a drink or two with dinner, I'll just tip 20% on the whole thing, no big deal. But what if alcohol comprises a very large portion of the bill?
To take an extreme example, if I were to order $50 worth of food + a $500 bottle of wine (I wish!), a 20% tip would mean that I'd be tipping the server $100 for opening a single bottle of wine!! That seems crazy to me. Even a 10% tip of $50 seems crazy for just 1 bottle of wine. Obviously if we'd ordered 50 drinks at $10 each, that would be different, since that's much more work for the server and bartender (and they'd have to call us an ambulance )
But generally speaking, what guidelines should I use for tipping on the alcohol portion of a meal bill, particularly when the alcohol makes up a very big portion of the bill?
Thx |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 824
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 07:19 pm: |
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Blister, If you cant justify the 20% tip on a bottle of wine perhaps you shouldn't order a bottle of wine with dinner. 20% is the going rate for tipping, providing the service is acceptable. I really dont know why you wouldn't think alcohol service worthy of the appropriate tip. |
blisterfoot99
New member
Username: blisterfoot99
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 08:33 pm: |
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Of course alcohol service is worthy of a tip, don't be dope. But if 20% is a standard tip on a meal, and 10-15% is standard for a bar bill (particularly for expensive alcohol, e.g. 1 expensive scotch vs. 3 cheap beers), then I'm just asking what is appropriate when a meal bill is largely comprised of alcohol charges (again--particularly when it is very expensive alcohol).
If I order a $30 bottle of wine and tip the server $6 for opening it, that seems reasonable. And if I'm with a group that orders 50 $10 drinks, a $2/drink tip of $100 might also be reasonable.
But why should I be expected to tip $100 just to open a single $500 bottle of wine? It doesn't take the server any more effort to open a more expensive bottle of wine. Maybe tip him double or even triple, but 20x his tip for opening a less expensive bottle?! Why?
Similarly, in most bars, a $1 or $2 tip per drink is appropriate. If I were to order 2 snifters of the most expensive cognac they have at $50 a pop, though, and I tipped $4-5/drink, isn't that sufficient? The bartender doesn't "deserve" a tip of $20 for pouring two drinks, nor does he necessarily expect it. |
trevorparsons
New member
Username: trevorparsons
Post Number: 23
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 09:29 pm: |
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Blister,
I understand your logic behind it, and don't necessarily disagree. But I will tell you that servers will cry the age-old "the government goes by my sales" bit, which is also logical in its own way.
Just do whatever you feel proper I suppose. |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 493
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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We're all hitting some rare cases. We once had an 800.00 bottle of wine, which if someone sold would be given a flat tip amount of 100.00. So the customer would pay for the bottle and the tip without having to tip. Price was raised to cover the 100.00 gratuity.
Now places that sell big wines, server expect to be tipped on total amount. You have to understand that the server's job is to get everything you need to enjoy your dinner. Whether your buying a tea, or buying a 200.00 bottle of wine, the server is going to do their job.
So why would a customer who spent 200.00 on a wine tip on the wine?
Well, besides the service of opening wine, decanting, and serving through-out the meal, the server is going to pay special attention to the big spenders. Plus managers of the restaurant tend to visit and remember the big spenders so they come back. VIP status.
With the turn of corkage and new technology, wines are going to twist off. Couple years from now everyone on the board is going to say, "Why should I tip for twisting off a cap of wine?"
Again, your tipping the server for SERVICE. Not for opening wine. If you tip on food only, your only doing the waiter a dis-service. He/she worked hard to make sure your happy with the food, the wine and the friendly service. Then you don't tip on the full amount? For shame.
Now this government thing of sales reporting, etc. I think people are going overboard on what the gov expects and what is correct.
As a waiter, you are required to report your TIPS. If your service sucks and you sell millions of dollars worth of food and wine and only make 10.00 in tips, the gov is going to tax you on 10.00. NOT millions of dollars.
What is required by the restaurant is accurate reporting. If the waiter is claiming less than 8% of his/her sales, then the restaurant has to fill out a form for allocation. In the above example, the restaurant will back up the sucky waiter and say, "yes he made only 10.00."
Needless to say, this waiter would be fired for crappy service, but the gov is not going to expect him to pay taxes on sales, only his tips.
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vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 494
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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Oops, forgot to add. If the waiter has to tip-out on sales, which most places do, then yes the waiter is going to lose money.
Let's say your a table of 10 people. Order two 500.00 bottle wines and 300.00 worth of food. Grand total of 1300.00.
20% would be 260.00
Tip out would be 3-5% of sales
3% = 39.00
5% = 65.00
Waiter walks with 221.00 - 195.00, depending on tip-out %.
Now take the cheapo who tips 20% on food, but not the wine.
20% of 300 = 60.00
3% of sales = 39.00
5% of sales = 65.00
So the waiter walks with 21.00 or, What!? What is this? He has to pay 5.00 to his support staff. For shame. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 826
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 03:32 pm: |
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Blister, you asked what is the going rate for a tip, on wine or alcohol. I replied to the question, it is 20%, I really dont know where you derived the 10-15% figure on wine or alcohol. Substandard service is not a consideration here.
Maybe you do think I'm a dope, I wouldn't have been so rude as to tell you I think you are just cheap, and looking for a way to cheap out on service. |
blisterfoot99
New member
Username: blisterfoot99
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 13 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 06:41 pm: |
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OK, Jammie. For starters, I asked a perfectly reasonable, polite question, and instead of providing even a semblance of a relevant, informative answer, you gave me a rude: "If you cant justify the 20% tip on a bottle of wine perhaps you shouldn't order a bottle of wine with dinner." Not sure if that makes you a half-wit and a jerk, or just a jerk.
As for calling me cheap, I have never in my life given a meal tip less than 15% on everything, including alcohol, even for crappy service, and for normal service I always tip at least 20%. But maybe if my waiter was a snot like you, he'd get a slap instead of a tip. Try being respectful of other people, you'll get a lot further in life.
As for Vozveratu, talking about a "cheapo" tipping on just the food, not the alcohol, I don't even know what question you were reading! I never suggested not tipping on the wine at all, I simply asked if it's appropriate to tip a lower percentage e.g. 10% on an outlandishly expensive bottle of wine, since the server is providing very little incremental service for a VASTLY bigger tip, and, frankly, a $100 tip for serving a single bottle of wine just seems like a lot of money! I think that's a resonable enough question to ask, and it seems like the answer is no. Fine. But get of your high horse with all this "for shame" crap. Man, you guys are a big joke.
What the hell is this message board for if you can't get a polite, sensible answer to a simple question? Maybe the reason you guys aren't getting better tips is that you're not very nice people... |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 827
Registered: 06-2003
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 07:24 pm: |
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Alright big oozy blister, I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer. You are whining about the amount of of a proper tip. If it is such a problem for you then perhaps you should evaluate what you order. I guess if you cant figure that out on your own than that makes you somewhat of a half wit.
I didn't particularly care for being called a dope. When I gave you a matter of fact answer, which was by the way perfectly reasonable and polite. You seemed to think it was suitable to name call, therefore I felt it was no longer necessary to have any respect or regard for you. You may want to take some of your own advice about being respectful. I'm sure you dont know this already but slapping people is not very "respectful". Look at your last post, and see who is not very nice.
What are you all pissed off because everybody didn't agree with you? You have no idea what I make in tips, not that it is any of your business. I will tell you anyway, I qualified for a two hundred and twenty thousand dollar mortgage with my own income. So take a big bite out of my ass you festering sore. |
blisterfoot99
New member
Username: blisterfoot99
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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A pathetic, sad individual. LMAO. |
renasue
New member
Username: renasue
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
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I think what you could possibly do is if you are ordering many mixed drinks is, tip the server for the food and extra for the drinks she served you and before you leave go put money in the bartenders tip jar so that she is getting the money she deserves for making your drinks. Especially if the drinks were fabulous. I would tip the most for mixed drinks, then wine, then beer. Most bartenders do get tip out but if your alcohol bill was exceptionally high then you should definately give the bartender extra. |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1133
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 08:00 am: |
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"Of course alcohol service is worthy of a tip, don't be dope. But if 20% is a standard tip on a meal, and 10-15% is standard for a bar bill (particularly for expensive alcohol, e.g. 1 expensive scotch vs. 3 cheap beers), then I'm just asking what is appropriate when a meal bill is largely comprised of alcohol charges (again--particularly when it is very expensive alcohol)".
Your flaw is that 10 -15% ISN'T standard for a bar bill. In fact, from what I've seen (and I'm not a bartender, but I see how people tip), people tip MORE that 20% for alcohol than they tip less that 15%. Generally, I think tip percentages run higher for most bartenders than it does for servers.
As to why you should tip the same for the expensive bottle - well why shouldn't you? You don't tip less for a filet than you do for a hamburger, do you? It takes no additional trouble to order and deliver a filet than it does a hamburger. If you can afford a $500 bottle of wine, then you can afford the tip. I still have to tip out on those sales, you know. Plus, you don't HAVE to order that $500 bottle of wine. If you want t show off for someone, then you shouldn't penalize your server. And if you REALLY want to drink that bottle, then you also shouldn't penalize your server because of the cost.
It's a shame that people (including the owner of this very site) continue to think this way. It's chintzy if you ask me.
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 830
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 08:36 am: |
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I thought you to be an egomaniac, rude and condescending. I got a rather hearty laugh at your posts, I really liked the lecture on respect, that had to be a joke. Followed by a statement about people not being nice, that was a real scream.
Why dont you stick to slapping around your wife and kids. Hows that working for ya? |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 497
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 09:09 am: |
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As for Vozveratu, talking about a "cheapo" tipping on just the food, not the alcohol, I don't even know what question you were reading! I never suggested not tipping on the wine at all, I simply asked if it's appropriate to tip a lower percentage
I was refering to customers in general. I was not directing the comment to you. You commented my statement with that one sentence, which you took in the wrong way, but made NO comment on what I educated you on as to why it would benefit you to tip 15-20% on total bill and not just the food. Quit thinking everyone is trying to dis you and read what is trying to be stated.
Jeez |
goldenfoxx
New member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 05:18 pm: |
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Seriously Blister,
This is a question that is weighted with self-justification. Your not really asking why you should tip $100 on a $500 bottle of wine,(Honestly, how many times have any of us ordered a $500 bottle of wine in a restraunt instead of buying the bottle for $200 and paying the corkage fee of ,what $20). What your really asking why you should tip $20 on a $100 dollar bottle of wine.
First of all, im assuming that you are arguing to justify a 10% tip out on wine bottle sales (for very expensive bottles)
Let me ask you this question. . If you were to bring in the $200 dollar bottle of wine, pay the corkage, and have your server decant and serve that bottle of Chateua LaTour the corkage would be about $20. Now given that the mark up of restraunts is 2 1/2 times (usually) do you tip your server $100 for serving the wine( 2 1/2 times 200 = $500 X 20% = $100). No, of course not. Do you tip them $50 on the bottle of wine ($500 x 10% = $50) This is what you seem to be argueing. That the service on the a bottle of wine justifies a ten percent tip. Your arguement is that you tip based on the work performed as oppossed to the totallity of the experience. So when you get the bill you give the server $50 dollars on that brought in bottle of wine right???? You dont just add in $4 ($20 x 20%=$4) for the corkage fee, right???
Now im not trying to be hostile, but there is a certain amount of hypocrasy out there concerning the tip out. People seem to try to justify whatever they can not to tip out. I see it as sticker shock. I saw it last night, couple has a great time, orders wine, appetizers, souffle, great entree's after dinner drinks and expressos. Constantly comment about how great the food and restraunt is. Meets the chef to compliment them. Everything is great and then ...dum dum dum... the bill comes. Suddenly the couple is staring at the bill so hard, like they expect the bill to be ashamed and change the prices right there on the paper. They scrutinize everything and ....this is where it happens... justification. They dont really need to tip out fuly on the wine...and the expresso well they seem alot so we wont tip on that. Shocked with the check they decide to save on the one place they can now...the servers tip. They order everything in sight, have a great time and then punish the one person who gave them a great time. No-one forces anyone to order anything. But suddenly the server is the scape-goat.
Sorry Blister, but this kind of attitude causes SERIOUS resentment in a servers mind. How can we justify cutting the tip on a server(especially when the bill comes)...well no server is going to appreciate that attitude...and honestly when the reverse happens, like the example above, do YOU as the guest say whoa I am ADDING to the work here, I think im going to tip way more that I typically do...well if you answered yes you are in the minority.
Thats why you tip out on the totality of the experience instead, in my humble opinion. And that is why the typical server response is to this question is dont order it if you cant tip on it. No offense met, its just our reaction to someone who is naturally inclined to sticker shock. People who have no problem tipping out on anything are at very little risk to sticker shock.
Thanks for the oppurtunity to answer your question
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jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 06:22 pm: |
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Just to play devil's advocate...LEt's say you get that $500 bottle of wine at the bar. Typically people tip per drink at the bar. $1-$2 per drink. Now should that be changed for this bottle of wine or do you tip $100 for this bottle at the bar? |
vozveratu
New member
Username: vozveratu
Post Number: 501
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 09:15 am: |
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goldenfoxx nailed it on the head. I have a feeling sticker shocks are going to be common in the restaurant I work at now, but oh well. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 833
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
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Perfect Goldenfox, I really dont know what answer that blister was looking for. At first my intention was not to be rude to him at all. I apply the same guidelines to myself. Example, there was this great steak house in town that had a fantastic happy our with a swing band and dance lessons. It was a fun place, I'm going back about 15 years ago. I would never consider ordering off the bar menu a $12.99 hamburger. Why ? because I couldn't justify the expense. I certainly could afford it, that wasn't the issue. I felt it was outrageously overpriced. I didn't want to pay for it, therefore I didn't order it. To me the tip is part of the meal and beverage cost. I know plenty of people removed from the tipped positions and have the same mind set.
My first post on this thread I was guilty of nothing more than being straight forward with a reply. |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 89
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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Just to play devil's advocate...LEt's say you get that $500 bottle of wine at the bar. Typically people tip per drink at the bar. $1-$2 per drink.
I don't know anything about $1-2 per drink; I always tip 20%+. If I ordered a $50 bottle of wine at the bar, I'd tip $10+. If I order a $100 bottle of wine, I'd tip $20. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 834
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 02:44 pm: |
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Agreed Tricky, The only time I dont apply the 20% rule,( I know you did say plus ) is when something is seriously under priced. Like for example $2.00 drinks or $1.99 breakfast special. Then I think a much greater percentage tip is in order. |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 227
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 04:09 pm: |
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See if I order a beer for $3 I'll leave a $1. I thought that was pretty standard as many bartenders told me it's about $1-$2 per drink. Which is generally 20% or more. I'm just wondering if you got that bottle at the bar would you hand over $100. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 836
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 07:02 pm: |
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Jena, yes I would. |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 07:27 pm: |
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Well as you said before, that's reason enough for me not to get that bottle of wine. I would defintely not pay $100 to have somebody open it for me and I would feel weird only leaving $5 or $10. It's a lose lose situation. Better just to pay $300 for the same bottle and enjoy it at home. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 839
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 06:34 am: |
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That is my point Jena. I wouldn't order a $200.00 bottle of wine either. As a matter of fact I wouldn't purchase one to consume at home. My limit is about $50.00 on a bottle of wine.
I drive a Ford not a Lexus, same logic. |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 90
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
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jenaclaree, where do you go that you get $3 beer? $1 is never 20% when we go to a bar, so it's not an issue. I'd never leave less than $1/drink, but 20% is always way more than $1.
We also never pay per drink. We always run a a tab... I don't often go to clubs, so this might be the issue. We sit at bars a restaurants occasionally, we also go to the bar to have a drink. I don't go to hip, trendy clubs anymore.
(Although when I was young enough that I did, I was bartending, so I always tipped ridiculously well. I imagine we tipped more like 40% when all was said and done. At least $2/drink and at the end of the night we were known to throw a $50 at the bartenders.) |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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Even at Chili's those little draft beers are 2 for $3. Except for pubs around here in South Florida I'd say $3 at a bar ( not a club) is normal. There are always specials you can even get $1.50 drafts at most places. Now when you go to the restaurants it can get pricier but not horribly.
Now let's say I go out with my boyfriend and we each drink 2 drafts at Chili's. Our total will be $6. If we leave $1 per drink that's pretty good but if we only leave 20% that's pretty bad. What is that like a $1.50 tip. The rules change depending on the situation. I think any bartender would be annoyed to get a $1.50 tip for pouring 4 beers. |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 91
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 01:12 pm: |
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There are always specials you can even get $1.50 drafts at most places.
Where? We're happy with $3 draft specials. In any case, you're supposed to tip on the regular price of stuff. So, if the special price is $1.50, but the normal price is $3, you ought to be tipping 20+% on the beers as if they were $3/each. (Still not $1/each, I realize.)
I still can't figure out how or where you find 4 beers for $6! We can't get 4 beers (worth drinking) for less than $20 around here. Heck, even at Crapplebee's, I think 4 Coors Light (swill) would be $10, at Happy Hour no less.
The rules change depending on the situation. I think any bartender would be annoyed to get a $1.50 tip for pouring 4 beers.
I'd argue that that annoyed bartender has a problem with the $1.50 tip, not that the tip is the problem. If he is bartending in a restaurant, the "rules" are simple. Good service = 20%.
Your rule is $1/drink. Are you really saying that if you ordered a bottle of wine at the bar you'd think it was appropriate to tip $4, since the bottle is approximately 4 glasses??? Maybe because I've never worked in a place where 20% amounted to less than $1/drink, and don't frequent those bars either, but as a bartender I was always happy with 20%. But, my average bar tab for two people who'd had two drinks each was close to $30, and most of them at least had an appetizer, too, bringing the check to closers to $40.
Would you rather we explicitly state a new rule?
Bar tipping is 20% of the tab unless that amounts to less than $1/drink. Then, it's $1/drink. |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 231
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 02:10 pm: |
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I actually have no idea about the wine. I always order wine at a dinner table and always tip 20% on the total.
There are alot of bars here in South Florida. It's easy to find cheap beers and even cheap cocktails. I used to work at one of those places where a martini is $9. I just can't go to places like that all the time. It's ridiculous to pay that much. I'm a teacher everybody knows we're broke. Here's how I really work tips. If I've been sitting at the bar a while and am paying regular price I tip 20% on the check. However if my tab is really low like a happy hour thing I leave 20% on the total. However if I am getting a drink at the bar and walking away with it I leave a $1. my drunks never cost over $5 so it's always 20% |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 840
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 04:53 pm: |
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Tricky, Jena is right here in southern Florida you can go out to certain places and get a happy hour drink for about $2.75, a strong one at that. A bottle of domestic beer would be around $2.00, drafts for about $1.50. Neighborhood type bars, or sports bars usually offer happy hour specials. Road house grill offers a happy hour with two drafts or house wine for the price of one. I dont drink beer and wouldn't consider drinking the house wine. Its Glenn Ellen, yech!! |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 233
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 05:16 pm: |
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Hell no but you can get call and premium at alot of bars for half off as well. Glen Ellen shouldn't even be used for cooking. We're lucky down here that there's so much competition you can get some really good deals. |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 94
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 07:32 pm: |
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jammie, maybe I don't frequent the right places, but Happy Hours here are still $3 drafts. I'll drink tap water before I drink a domestic beer (except Yuengling) and I can't drink well liquor. Maybe that's why I can't fathom the prices she's talking about.
Even at Happy Hour, my mixed drink (Ketel & Tonic or a Dirty Ketel Martini) is $4 or $5. Good thing I can't ever drink more than two. (At least not now that I'm old and out of shape.)
Anyway, I think we generally agree - but I still think a bartender in a restaurant should be happy with 20%. Otherwise go work in a club! |
jenaclaree
New member
Username: jenaclaree
Post Number: 234
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 08:08 pm: |
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At least you can get martinis at happy hour. That's unheard of around here! |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 95
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 08:12 pm: |
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At least there's some benefit. Heehee. |
redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 87
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 12:28 am: |
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Blisterfoot, as you said, don't expect to get an unbiased answer here. I agree with you - I feel that tips should at least partially be based on level of service, and it doesn't take twice the effort to open a bottle of wine priced at twice the value.
It is understandable that servers want to protect their source of income - but from the customer's standpoint, a higher tip should be the result of receiving a higher level of service.
RedBeard
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longjohn720
New member
Username: longjohn720
Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 01:00 am: |
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As far as my restaurant goes, when someone orders a pricey bottle of wine, there actually is some extra work involved than just opening a cheaper bottle. Big bottles get crystal wine glasses (who do you think polishes them?), as well as the reds are usually decanted (who do you think cleans and does the decanting?), especially the older wines.
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teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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Additionally, we don't quibble about the fact that it takes no extra effort to take an order and deliver a $4 plate vs a $40 plate in the same restaurant, now do we?
No, it's a guest actually complaining about the price of wine and doing it on the backs of the servers. There is NO restaurant that I know of that doesn't offer inexpensive bottles of wine as an alternative to the expensive bottles. Ironically, those inexpensive bottles usually have a much larger markup than the really expensive bottles. For instance, MOST bottles under $50 have a 3.5 - 4.5 times markup over cost, while most bottles over $100 have a markup between 2 - 3 times cost markup. So, if you're looking for "value", which I think is fairly futile when ordering wine in a restaurant (after all, you can always get wine, or any alcohol for that matter, much cheaper on a shop shelf), you should pop for the more expensive bottles, but don't forget that you should tip on the full amount. It's no different than tipping the same on a hamburger as you would on a surf and turf dish. If you want the "better" and more expensive product, it's incumbent on you to tip on it.
What you are actually paying for when you buy a bottle of wine (or any drink for that matter) in the restaurant has several components:
1. You have purchased the right to purchase a bottle of wine outside the normal retail outlets (retail establishments are protected by law by preventing people from buying the same bottle of wine from a restaurant for home consumption and this is further protected by the price markup - this is the reason why you don't go in a restaurant and buy a case of wine - it isn't allowed by law, nor is it financially advisable).
2. You are paying for the restaurant having to carry an inventory of product. In my previous restaurant, we carried about $30,000 worth of product. Sure, some of it was fast-turning (in other words was probably sold before it had to be paid for, usually 30 days), but many of the bottles sit for months at a time, and this is done to allow you the consumer the widest possible choice in selection - some bottles don't get ordered very often, but if you want that bottle, you want it to be available. This is especially true for restaurants with very expensive AND extensive wine lists, the very restaurants that are likely to have many bottles in the price range that's being complained about.
3. You are paying for the time spent by the staff in training (sure, this training is variable and in the main determined by the individual server taking the time to retain information about the product).
4. In some restaurants, you are paying for the additional cost of fine crystal, decanters, wine cellars (which AIN'T cheap, let me tell you), labeling, and the time spent organizing the collection).
5. The cost of alcohol certification, which in most cases is borne by the server. In my state, you have to pay $60 and spend 4 hours in a state mandated class. The issued card used to only be good for 3 years, but thankfully, we now only have to be recertified every 5 years.
6. And, just like everything else sold in the restaurant, the selling cost of a bottle of wine pays for the costs of running the restaurant, and this includes all of those really nice $15 heavy china plates, fancy napkins, nice flower arrangements, heavy $3 forks, fancy lighting, comfortable chairs, etc.
When you add all of these costs together, it's reasonable to see why wine and alcohol is marked up the way it is. Do some restaurants overcharge for wine? Yep. Do those restaurants UNIFORMLY overcharge? Probably not. They probably have certain classes of wine that have different markups than others. The only way to really know is to have a good idea of the retail shelf price in that market. Usually, a "good" reasonable markup would be somewhere around 3X retail cost (remember that retail stores have their OWN markups as well). The idea is though that you ARE going to pay a much higher price for wine than you will at retail. However, retail doesn't have to employ 25 - 100 people to serve you (my restaurant currently employs about 105 people, while the biggest retail store in my town employs less than 20). |
ranjer764
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Username: ranjer764
Post Number: 317
Registered: 09-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:12 am: |
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ok blister, here's another "pathetic sad individual" for you to throw your condescension at.
If you can afford that much for a bottle of wine, the tip should be a non-issue. Period.
jammie, I think this is the angriest I've seen from you, and it's perfectly justifiable.
and blister, why don't you and "lords" open your own thread and you can complain to your heart's content about all of the ungrateful servers and/or bartenders in the world.
teleburst ... as always I applaud your knowledge, and enjoy reading your posts because I have actually gleaned a great deal of information from you. Thank you for being a true source !!!! |
jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 844
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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The pompous ass earned it ranjer. Just cant stand people that want to obviously live beyond their means, and have some kind of twisted logic as to why it is acceptable. Who do they cheap out on, you guessed it the server. The only person they can, you wouldn't expect then to deny themselves anything.
I know I was supposed to hang on every word typed by the magnificent fingers of blister. I found that individual to be abrasive and rude and more condescending with every post I read. Then proclaiming innocence, " I was only asking a question" I have no patients for the likes of blister, or anybody that conducts themselves in the manner. |
ranjer764
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Username: ranjer764
Post Number: 327
Registered: 09-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 07:44 pm: |
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well said, jammie ... |
pokervixxen
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Username: pokervixxen
Post Number: 44
Registered: 06-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 07:30 pm: |
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Considering the mark up on wine in a restaurant as opposed to a grocery store, why do people order overpriced wine in a restaurant when they can open it themselves and drink it at home? The same question is posed for a nice dinner, why go to a restaurant when you can cook the same thing at home for a fraction of the cost?
The answer is simple, entertainment. We put dining out as entertainment in our budget. Wine service in a restaurant is all about the presentation, the ritual. It's an indulgence to “host” an expensive bottle of wine, to be catered to, to be served. Isn't that the whole point of dining? |
jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 863
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 08:02 pm: |
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Yes it is Pokervixxen, and we expect to tip appropriately on what we order. Otherwise we select drive thru. |
porkrind
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Username: porkrind
Post Number: 44
Registered: 07-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 08:19 am: |
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Pokervixxen
Isn't that the whole point of dining?
Given the context of this thread, yes, but it's not universally true; in my case it's simple sustenance 4 days a week, as I'm 1000 miles from home Monday through Thursday.
There are folks out there who must eat in restaurants if they're to eat at all . . . dining out isn't always for pleasure. In my case, a home-cooked meal is something I value far more than anything served in a restaurant; the novelty of dining out wore off years ago.
PorkRind
The Crunchy Other White Meat Byproduct
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jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 866
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 08:32 am: |
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Point taken porkrind, doesnt it suck eating out alone all the time? |
porkrind
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Username: porkrind
Post Number: 45
Registered: 07-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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jammie
Point taken porkrind, doesnt it suck eating out alone all the time?
Yes it does, Jammie. Though I don't particularly enjoy cooking, I'll put in the effort on the weekends just so I can eat something home-cooked
Vacations can suck, too . . . I spend so much time away from home that the last thing I want to do is leave for some distant place when I've got vacation time coming to me (I'll take one for the team/family occasionally, though). My best vacation in the last 5 years was the two weeks I spent daysailing on my sailboat in '04.
PorkRind
The Crunchy Other White Meat Byproduct
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pokervixxen
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Username: pokervixxen
Post Number: 45
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 06:18 pm: |
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I understand that, but, surely you're not ordering expensive wine and spirits, those are obviously reserved for special occasions. Regardless of whether you have to eat out every night or not, you tip on the total bill. As far as wine service is concerned, your paying for the presentation, the ritual, the entertainment. |
porkrind
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Username: porkrind
Post Number: 46
Registered: 07-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 07:12 pm: |
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Pokervixxen
I understand that, but, surely you're not ordering expensive wine and spirits, those are obviously reserved for special occasions. Regardless of whether you have to eat out every night or not, you tip on the total bill. As far as wine service is concerned, your paying for the presentation, the ritual, the entertainment.
Yes, Pokervixxen, that's why I started my response with "Given the context of this thread, yes, but it's not universally true."
And I agree . . . you tip on the total, including liquor. In my case, though, it's decent scotch rather than wine
PorkRind
The Crunchy Other White Meat Byproduct
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goldenfoxx
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Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 92
Registered: 10-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 03:53 pm: |
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pokervixen >>> Considering the mark up on wine in a restaurant as opposed to a grocery store, why do people order overpriced wine in a restaurant when they can open it themselves and drink it at home?
I can answer this one...some wines need to be accompanied by a certain style of food. Good wine alone is good, good food alone is good...but good wine and the right good food is transcendant. And honestly, how many of us can cook like they do at some of these restaurants. I certainly cant. |
pokervixxen
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Username: pokervixxen
Post Number: 46
Registered: 06-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:03 pm: |
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A wine presentation is a ritual, a ceremony. How do you even aquire the knowledge to order off of the wine list? Simple, the server helps you navigate and accurately matches your preferences to a compatible wine. If anything, you should tip more for the presentation.
The basics of tipping are these, you tip the staff because it makes YOU feel good. Pay it forward.
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redbeard
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Username: redbeard
Post Number: 89
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 01:22 pm: |
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When someone is called a "cheapskate" simply for questioning the reason to tip for higher priced alcohol, the one using that word shows that they cannot have an honest discussion about the bases for tipping - they just want the maximum tip all of the time.
Some servers say that they tip a higher percentage for service for very low cost items, i.e. never tip less than a dollar for food that costs less than $5. Why? Because the tip does not reflect the level of service received. I don't disagree with that reasoning.
The same reasoning should apply to very high priced items. The tip perecetnage for an expensive bottle of wine should not automatically be the same as the tip percentage for the remainder of the meal, since the level of service to serve one bottle of wine is not the same as the level of service to serve an entire meal. That does not mean "no tip" for the wine, just a smaller percentage of the total price.
People are not automatically "cheapskates" just because they question something as "overtipping" relative to the service received. As there are no written rules on tipping, there is room for discussion as to what might be appropriate. It is too bad that some on this board do not want to allow for any real discussion that doesn't match their view that tips should somehow be fixed at 20 percent.
RedBeard
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teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 03:49 pm: |
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"The same reasoning should apply to very high priced items. The tip perecetnage for an expensive bottle of wine should not automatically be the same as the tip percentage for the remainder of the meal, since the level of service to serve one bottle of wine is not the same as the level of service to serve an entire meal. That does not mean "no tip" for the wine, just a smaller percentage of the total price".
Do you use that rationale for your very expensive steak? Of course not. A steak costs 20 times what a coke does. and yet you don't employ a sliding scale there either.
You inadvertantly touched on why you should tip normally on the bottle when you mentioned "the whole meal". The bottle of wine is a key component of the meal, ESPECIALLY when it's a very expensive bottle.
The "level of service" for the "whole meal" INCLUDES the bottle of wine, just as it includes the salad. The fact that you choose an expensive bottle of wine VOLUNTARILY is irrelevant. Take away that bottle of wine that you seem to have to have, and the pleasure of the meal is diminished.
Thanks for making my point for me. |
goldenfoxx
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Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 94
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 06:33 pm: |
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Response to Redbeard;
First of all...where do you go that your bill is lower than $5? Just want to know so that I can show up...around here we call that place Taco Bell, and I havent tipped there yet.
Second of all...If you had read my response earlier, Im not really calling people cheapskates for wanting to tip less, but once you start wanting to base the tip on level of service that is given, it opens a whole can of worms. If you bring in a bottle of expensive wine, do you tip on the $20 corkage charge or do you tip on what the bottle of wines value? $20 X 20% = $4 dollars, $400 x 10% = $40 dollars. $400 x 5% = $20. So what do you do?
Better yet, how about braking it down to actual service points.. oh you wanted that steak medium Rare, ok that will be a $3 service charge, oh you wanted to substitue your sides..ok that will be a $1 service charge...oh you had three refills of Ice Tea...well thats $.50 a peice for $1.50 ...see how that can add up.
Right now we have a system that makes it easier for everyone. Tip on the total bill, based on the total experience and it is distributed to everyone who partaked in the service.
Once you start saying that there wasnt that much effort involved in informing, opening and serving that bottle of wine so Ill only tip minimally on it, based on the logic that you are giving a service charge based on the level of service activity, you have to apply that logic equally, and add that service charge unilaterally. Any thing less isnt being cheap, its being a hypocrit.
And frankly as a server, I dont want my guests to worry about asking for anything, I simply want to give my guests amazing service and to be compensated for it. |
redbeard
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Username: redbeard
Post Number: 92
Registered: 09-2002
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 08:04 pm: |
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Teleburst, Goldenfoxx actually provided my reasoning why we do not vary the tip percentage for the steak vs the burger - because we want an easy system for the basic meal service. Technically, we probably should tip a higher percentage if we order the lowest priced items on the menu or tip a lower percentage if we order the higher priced items on the menu - but we just tip a constant percentage and assume that it will even out in the end.
Yet, that is the very reason that it seems that wine should be in a special category - a bottle of wine can cost more than that of a meal that includes bread, salad, the entree, water, etc, and sometimes the wine costs as much as two meals. Since opening and pouring a bottle of wine generally does not require the same effort as serving two several course meals, it seems reasonable to treat the tip for the wine in a different manner. I try to avoid this problem by ordering a low priced bottle of white wine, since my wife and I like Pinot Grigio and Chardonnay. But when the white wine prices are jacked up to nearly as much as the cost of two meals, I question the need to tip as much for the wine as for the two meals.
FYI, in most moderately priced restaurants that I eat in and that serve wine, my primary server brings the wine bottle, opens it at the table, and pours the first glass. They are generally not wine experts, and they bring what I order off the wine menu. (Sometimes they have difficutly opening the bottle, due to lack of experience.)
Goldenfoxx, here is an example of a food item that cost less than $5 at a full service restaurant: Last week I had a meal at a restaurant near the airport. My father's flight was then delayed for over two hours. I didn't want dessert right away, so I sat in my car and read some magazines for an hour. I then went back into the restaurant and ordered dessert only, with a glass of water. The dessert with tax cost less than $4. Should I have tipped 20%, or 75 cents? (I left a $5 bill.) (You can also get a $1.99 breakfast in some diners.)
RedBeard
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goldenfoxx
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Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:30 pm: |
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Redbeard,
Im sorry that your experience with servers is that they are lacking in experience. I can tell you I spend several hours a week learning about the wines we carry by the bottle and spend my own money tasting wines so that I can be knowledgable. I think the issue here is that the servers that you are encountering are not experienced enough to add to your dining experience. Personally I think just suppressing the urge not to laugh when someone orders Beringer White Zinfandel is worth every penny in the tip....
To sum up...the difficulty in becoming Knowledge of wines Usually easily surpasses the difficulty in learning thr knowledge of the Food items, and the pairing of the two makes the meal transendent. But honestly, if you are ordering burgers, the point is kinda moot.
Secondly...Your ordering Pinot Grigio or Chardonnay...whats the top price that your looking at maybe $80 dollars tops.
By the way...I live in CA...I havent seen a $1.99 breakfast for years...except maybe for Denny's and I would rather stick wine keys into the back of my hand then eat in there.
And Ill say this once again there are many situations in serving where the ammount of service given is not proportional to the amount of work. How does one justify taken a special approach to one area and not another. Oh, because it cost more. Oh, because its convenient for me. Im sorry, given the current system, I dont understand the whole Im not going to tip on wine arguement. I can understand the rational but I think it is a very narrow vision arguement and seriously borders on hypocrasy, but that is probably becuase Ive worked in the service industry for a while and see the other side...all the special requests and bizzare things that guests ask for and do. Ill guess I just think that if everyone just tips on the total experience then it will all even out in the end...do I think its fair to the low maintenance guests...no...but thats just the system. |
jammie
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Username: jammie
Post Number: 871
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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Goldenfox, I know what you mean about Berringer whit zin, we serve that where I work. We dont serve alot of it but when somebody orders it I want to Laugh.If Merlot is asked for I offer the Clos Dubois, its a much better selection than our house Trinity Oaks, yech!!! I would rather be pecked to death by chickens. |
teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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"FYI, in most moderately priced restaurants that I eat in and that serve wine, my primary server brings the wine bottle, opens it at the table, and pours the first glass. They are generally not wine experts, and they bring what I order off the wine menu. (Sometimes they have difficutly opening the bottle, due to lack of experience.)"
You're kidding me. The restaurants that you frequent allow their servers to only pour the first glass? I don't think I've EVER seen that when dining out.
Once again, you don't HAVE to buy that bottle that costs the same as two meals. Stick to the cheap stuff if you don't want to pay to play. As you have found out, there are some nice values there. Nobody's forcing you to buy the pricier stuff, just as nobody is forcing you to spend $100 a person at Charlie Trotter's for dinner. And yet, you probably wouldn't think twice about tipping appropriately IF you ate there.
Even if a server only opens a bottle of wine, that's more "service" than dropping off a plate of steak and fries. And if you're talking about EXPENSIVE bottles of wine, not the $60 bottles that you are snivelling about (sorry, I can't help but be dismissive), then you DO have additional service. Riedel wine glass polishing, exacting presentation, proper pouring techniques, and yes, KNOWLEDGE OF THE WINE LIST.
To hear you bitching about $4 more on a $70 check, which is really what you're talking about (in YOUR general experience), yes, I'd call you a cheapskate.
And most people DON'T tip more for cheap meals - they're as chintzy as you are regarding wine. I'm glad that you actually don't fall in that category, and none of us in the restaurant business don't either. We tip more than "appropriate" when the dollar amount is lower, but I wouldn't DEMAND that people do it, just that it's a good thing to do. The standard is STILL 15% of the bill for average service.
You have a choice - buy wine that's within your reach, or shoot the moon. But you need to pay to play. 95% of people who can afford (and regularly buy) $100+ wines tip the same on them as they do their meals (in other words 17-20%). Don't cheat me because those wine sales are part of my total sales and I have to tip out on those sales. Plus, if I ever get audited, the IRS isn't going to back those sales out either. Ask you daughter if she'd like to have a percentage of her sales subtracted from a tip simply because the guest didn't think she "worked hard enough" in some phase of her service. And, for an example, if you spent $40 for a meal with just water and you tip me 20%, I'll make about $5 after tip out. If you add a $50 bottle of wine to that and not tip on it, I'll LOSE about $1.75 waiting on you because of tipout. Now granted, my tipout is very high (but there are lots of restaurants that are now taking bigger and bigger chuncks - for instance, Maggiano's just opened up down the street - their servers actually tip out about 9%, which is 1% higher than me, as I tip out EIGHT PERCENT of my sales). But even at the more normal 3%, if you reduce my sales by over half, it's going to cost me a lot of money.
I don't work in a wine-intensive restaurant anymore, so it's not as big of deal for me anymore. The most expensive bottle on our wine list is only $55 (although we have a small captain's list that has about 8 bottles that go up to about $70. But if you go to a restaurant that has hundreds of bottles and many bottles in the $100-400 range, as in the last place that I worked, YES, you are paying for additional service, and that includes wine knowledge as well. Of course, that's not the kind of place that you seem to frequent. If you order wine at Chilis, then frankly, you don't NEED that level of service. But you really aren't going to be buying any "expensive bottles". After all, in the type of restaurant that I USED to work in, a bottle that costs twice of what YOU spend on a meal is still a pretty cheap bottle of wine. It's all about context. |
redbeard
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Username: redbeard
Post Number: 95
Registered: 09-2002
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:55 pm: |
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My reference to "moderately priced restaurants" generally means chain type restaurants (Chilis, Applebees, Outback Steakhouse, etc) or local Chinese or Thai restaurants. We eat in such restaurants regularly and typically have a bottle of wine with dinner. We eat in "upscale restaurants" mainly for special occasions.
I would never personally order a bottle of wine over $50 nor would I allow a server to choose a wine for me. We don't drink red wines and we know the types of white wines we like - why let someone sell me an expensive wine that may not suit my tastes? (We spent a couple of days in Napa Valley visiting wineries and found that the higher priced wines didn't taste much better to us.)
If I can get a bottle of wine for a little over $20, I don't worry about varying the tip. But I recall one meal where one bottle of wine plus an after dinner drink cost $50 and the main meal with dessert for two cost $50. I had no concern with a $10 tip on the main meal, but I questioned why a $10 tip for the alcohol. That doesn't mean "no tip" for alcohol, I just question the percentage. I guess I still don't understand how serving a bottle of wine is equal to serving bread, salad, the main course, dessert, and keeping water glasses full, as well as checking with the customer if anything else is needed.
RedBeard
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teleburst
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Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 06-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 02:38 am: |
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". I guess I still don't understand how serving a bottle of wine is equal to serving bread, salad, the main course, dessert, and keeping water glasses full, as well as checking with the customer if anything else is needed".
I don't understand why selling you a bottle of wine should COST ME MONEY, so I guess we're even.
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tricky
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Username: tricky
Post Number: 116
Registered: 05-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 07:33 am: |
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Whether or not you needed the wine knowledge, redbeard, whether you used the server's experience or asked for his or her opinion, s/he should have had the knowledge and experience to guide you.
Part of the reason (IMO) one should tip the same 15-20% on a bottle of wine that they would on the entire meal is that experience. In any other field, knowledge and experience equal cash. |
teleburst
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Post Number: 1183
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 01:03 pm: |
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And what tricky wrote reminds me of something. If redbeard never takes advantage of a server's expertise, how can he honestly possibly say "They are generally not wine experts". How would he know if he never allows them to interact with him and his wife? If some of them are fumble-fingered in opening a bottle, that might or might not an indication of "expertise". It might also be an indication of simple lack of manual dexterity (although *I* can teach ANYONE how to open a bottle with ease).
I grant that not every server is an expert in wine. Heck, I know a lot about wine, but I'm no "expert". However, I can reasonably provide a bottle that complements a guests taste, budget and food choice and I have often times "downsold" bottles because they were more appropriate than a more expensive bottle.
In the old days, the only way that you could get a decent selection of wine *and* presumably a decent bottle, was to dine in an upscale restaurant. And in that case, you wouldn't think twice about tipping the wine steward that provided your service. Now, fortunately for the consumer, you can actually get a decent selection AND a decent bottle of wine in many "casual" restaurants, and you don't have to suffer a snobby wine steward that's going to browbeat you into buying a hundred dollar bottle of wine, or throw a lot of unnecessary ceremony and snot your way. Wine service has been rolled into the server's role because it's integrated into the meal and there's more pressure to be as knowledgable about that as it is to be knowledgable about the food being prepared in the kitchen. And it's a far deeper and more complex subject. The server needs to have a reasonable knowledge about wine in case someone *does* need help (heck, one day, you might wish to try something different, god forbid!). I work in such a restaurant that you describe (in fact, there's a good chance that you've actually dined in my restaurant chain). and we don't have 10 or 15 wines by the glass. Each one of our bottles is also served by the glass. This means that I REALLY need to intimately know the characteristics of about 50 wines, because of the chance of any one of them being ordered by any table at any times (at least when you have a list of 200+ wines like in my previous restaurant, there's little chance that you will have to have intimate knowledge, tasting included, of every single bottle). As head trainer, I have to insure that everyone of my servers have a reasonable knowledge of wine, and some of those servers aren't even old enough to be able to taste them (imagine having to know about something that you've never experienced). Imagine if everyone felt like you did and didn't want to tip on the wine. What incentive would I, or my servers have, to care about what you drank? In fact, I'd do everything I could to get you to drink mixed drinks, since you find them more "acceptable" in terms of tipping. I'd rather you tip on a smaller bill than to not tip fully on a larger one, especially since you would be costing me money, as I have previously explained.
No, you need to look at context. No longer do you have separate service for wine. And, because of that, your wine choices have actually expanded. Wine is the same as any other product that you order in a restaurant now, except in the fanciest of restaurants. In my restaurant, most of my guests choose bottles of wine less than $35 and a $50 bottle of wine *is* considered "expensive" (in fact, you would probably be one of those ordering the $35 Hess Select or Kendall-Jackson chardonnay, even though you'd probably like the RH Phillips viognier even better at $37 if you gave it, or your server, a chance).
Now you have the choice of an affordable product, and you are COMPLAINING? GMAB. |
goldenfoxx
New member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 03:08 pm: |
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Oh god...is there anything more awful then KJ Chardonnay...the oak...the oak...the horror!!!
Well yeah there is beringer White zin... |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 883
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 09:34 pm: |
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my coworker had an order for a glass of Beringer white zin tonight. I made a comment with a usual tone of disgust. She in all seriousness said "Well what do you drink?" Certainly not white zin!!! Oh I know how about a nice yummy glass of Bones Farm, Mad Dog 20/20. UGH!! |
redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 96
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:38 am: |
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Teleburst, please stop twisting what I have said. You wrote: "If you add a $50 bottle of wine to that and not tip on it, I'll LOSE about $1.75 waiting on you because of tipout...I don't understand why selling you a bottle of wine should COST ME MONEY, so I guess we're even."
I have never once suggested "not tipping for wine". I have only questioned the percentage of the tip. Are you claiming that you will lose money if I tip anything less than 20%?
"If redbeard never takes advantage of a server's expertise, how can he honestly possibly say 'They are generally not wine experts'. "
What if the young waitress admitted that she was inexperienced at opening wine bottles - and we helped show her how? (That was at a Italian restaurant, one of the chain restaurants.)
RedBeard
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teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1188
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:54 am: |
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"Teleburst, please stop twisting what I have said. You wrote: "If you add a $50 bottle of wine to that and not tip on it, I'll LOSE about $1.75 waiting on you because of tipout...I don't understand why selling you a bottle of wine should COST ME MONEY, so I guess we're even."
I have never once suggested "not tipping for wine". I have only questioned the percentage of the tip".
Excuse me, but I don't see the distinction. What would you THINK would be the "proper percentage"?
"Are you claiming that you will lose money if I tip anything less than 20%?
This is what I'm claiming. If you spend $100 on a meal, and half of it is on the wine, and you only tip, say, $5 on the wine because you think that it's only worth 10% (and I'm being generous here, because you seem to be saying that it deserves even less, based on some "sweat equity" principle), and you tip 20% on the rest, that's now a cumulative 15% tip. And let's say that I gave excellent service and you believe in tipping 20% for excellent service, you've now not tipped according to your standard. And in that case, you haven't cost me money, but I'm going to walk with exactly $7 on that $100 check. No, that's not costing me money, but frankly, if I AVERAGED 7% after tipout, I'd be gone from this business in a heartbeat, because I'd be walking with $70 on every thousand dollars in sales. And that's just not acceptable to me. Now, if you decided that you only had to tip 5% because of some calibration of time/effort/cost of "opening a bottle of wine", now, I'm going to walk with a grand total of $5.50. Ask your daughter if she'd find that worth hanging around. And if you decide to stiff me on the bottle, and still tip 20% on the food, I'm walking with a grand total of $2! If you decide to tip 15% on the food and nothing on the bottle, then yes, I'm losing money.
"If redbeard never takes advantage of a server's expertise, how can he honestly possibly say 'They are generally not wine experts'. "
What if the young waitress admitted that she was inexperienced at opening wine bottles - and we helped show her how? (That was at a Italian restaurant, one of the chain restaurants.)
First of all, would you consider that "great service"? I certainly wouldn't and I'd tip appropriately. Second of all, I had a guest who wrote in 0.00 on a $16 check tonight. Does that mean that all guests don't have a clue? Sure, anyone can cherry-pick an isolated incident and extrapolate from that. Third, I'll bet that if you got that waitress again in six months, you wouldn't have to help her open a bottle of wine. It's all part of the learning experience. That's why tipping APPROPRIATELY is so important. Green servers shouldn't be earning quite as much as experienced servers, unless they are as good as experienced servers. How do you tell? Well, one barometer is if they need the guest to open their bottle of wine. 99% of servers need at least 6 months to even start to learn the fine art of service. And really, it takes a year or two to become decently proficient for most servers. And during that time, one of the ways that they learn is through both the positive AND negative reinforcement that comes from tips. That's how we calibrate and evalutate our competence. Ask your daughter if she doesn't look at tips as a gauge of her competency. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 885
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 06:24 am: |
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or as a gauge, that helps decide to continue in the restaurant industry, or move on. |
redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 98
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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Two questions:
1. Why is it suggested that the customer tip on the "total bill" when it is inflated by overpriced wine but it is not suggested to tip on the "total bill" after it has been reduced due to coupons or discounts? This is a double standard - why should tips only go up and not down based on the total bill?
2. Following is a comment by a sever from another thread related to tipping out bartenders: "At my other fine dining job, we are supposed to tip out based on liquor sales. Supposedly, we are meant to tip out on bottles of wine too, but most of our waitresses do not. Even one waitress who doubles as a bartender said she doesn't include bottles because when she's behind the bar, she doesn't feel she deserves any part of that. She grabs a bottle and puts it on the bar for you. Big work!" - So, why do some servers have a double standard when it comes to tipping out on wine?
RedBeard
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teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 04:00 pm: |
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"1. Why is it suggested that the customer tip on the "total bill" when it is inflated by overpriced wine but it is not suggested to tip on the "total bill" after it has been reduced due to coupons or discounts? This is a double standard - why should tips only go up and not down based on the total bill"?
Because the coupon doesn't say, 10% off SERVICE. As to whether or not you want that "overpriced wine", well, that's *your* choice.
"2. Following is a comment by a sever from another thread related to tipping out bartenders: "At my other fine dining job, we are supposed to tip out based on liquor sales. Supposedly, we are meant to tip out on bottles of wine too, but most of our waitresses do not. Even one waitress who doubles as a bartender said she doesn't include bottles because when she's behind the bar, she doesn't feel she deserves any part of that. She grabs a bottle and puts it on the bar for you. Big work!" - So, why do some servers have a double standard when it comes to tipping out on wine"?
That waitress didn't serve the bottle to the guest when doubling as the bartender - THAT'S why she didn't think that she was entitled to a portion of the tip.
Hopefully this answers your questions. |
tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 120
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 04:46 pm: |
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Um, the checks aren't artificially inflated. The $30 steak you're eating? It cost the restaurant $8-$10. The wine markup is probably no more and likely less. You order it, you pay for it.
I'm really starting to believe that you're (current) presence here is just to provoke, kind of like lords. |
redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 100
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 06:08 pm: |
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Tricky, I am only trying to "provoke thought" about inconsistencies in arguments that only seem to be used when they increase tips. (And by the way, I didn't use the word "artificially".)
Teleburst, as I understand your answers, you base the tip on the "total bill" when you order high priced wine rather than on the relative level of service, but when you get a discounted meal you tip on actual level of service rather than on the final "total bill"?
And the bartender doesn't get a tipout for just setting the wine bottle on the bar, but the customer should tip more for just opening a higher priced bottle of wine?
And, do neither of you see any inconsistencies here?
(And for the record, I do think one should tip on the before-discounted bill - I'm only pointing out the inconsistencies in the arguments.)
RedBeard
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tricky
New member
Username: tricky
Post Number: 121
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 07:17 pm: |
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So, why use the word inflated, then? Inflated means "puffed-up". If you are getting exactly what you pay for, then the check isn't inflated. That was my entire point.
Here's my reasoning.
You should tip on the normal, everyday cost of something. If you get lucky and get a $8 martini for $5 because it's Happy Hour, you tip as if you'd paid full price. The tip percentage should be based on what the item COSTS, not what you actually paid.
I didn't defend the server. If s/he's supposed to tip the bar for that bottle of wine, then s/he should have. Nobody claimed every server was an angel - at least I didn't. I will interject, though, that as you are displaying many guests resent tipping on bottled wine. So, if the guest doesn't tip on the wine, should the server tip-out? I dare say, No. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 887
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 09:21 pm: |
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redbeard, it is not a double standard. Considering the standard tip, order less expensive food, or wine. That reduces you're bill, therefore you tip on that total.
The tipping out of the bartender issue, well that is two servers opinions, like some might agree with you. This would only be a double standard if I a bartender expected to be tipped out by my servers on wine. On the other hand refused to tip a server 20% on a bottle of wine that I ordered while dining out.
Not only do I speak it, I practice it. Providing the service is decent to good I tip at least 20%, and either go up or down from there depending on the level of service. |
teleburst
New member
Username: teleburst
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 09:27 am: |
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"Teleburst, as I understand your answers, you base the tip on the "total bill" when you order high priced wine rather than on the relative level of service, but when you get a discounted meal you tip on actual level of service rather than on the final "total bill"?
And the bartender doesn't get a tipout for just setting the wine bottle on the bar, but the customer should tip more for just opening a higher priced bottle of wine?
And, do neither of you see any inconsistencies here"?
Nope.
I could just as easily point out the inconsistency of someone who says, "You should tip 20% on great service, but you should tip less on a certain part of the bill because they think that that item is too expensive, even though the service is exactly the same as the rest of the meal". Do YOU not find this inconsistent?
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redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 103
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 06:48 pm: |
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Tricky, your suggestion that "You should tip on the normal, everyday cost of something" is one that can at least be applied more consistently than other suggestions for establishing the amount to base the tip on. Nevertheless, I still feel that level of service received vs cost is a consideration.
I would be a little surprised if the average customer tipped double at happy hour with 2-for-1 drinks, although tips likely would be higher than for one drink. And I doubt that the average customer would increase their tip when the restaurant has an in-house "special" with a discount on a meal posted in the menu, vs using a 2-for-1 entree coupon. And some would argue that for a restaurant that regularly publishes discount coupons, the "real" price of the meal is the discounted price and the menu price is inflated to allow for the discount.
It also should be noted that the server who must pay a "tip-out" will make extra money when someone uses a coupon and tips based on the pre-discounted price. If the tip-out and the tax withholding are based on the server's "total sales", the server only tips-out and has taxes withheld on the discounted price but gets to keep the higher tip!
RedBeard
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orchid714
New member
Username: orchid714
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 07:27 pm: |
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Let's all go out for a few bottles of wine and discuss how much I should tip the kennel for keepin' my dog for 2 weeks! |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 910
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
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wrongo, redbeard. Total sales are just that. Maybe a little difficult to understand, but your sales are what you sell then the discounts are deducted. There is a function to enter, so the price is reflected properly on the bill. Total sales and actual sales are two separate things. For example we ring employee meals, we get $8.00 comp. toward a meal. So I ring a pizza for $7.75, that is added onto my total sales, with the discount I have a zero transaction. Get it? Its like with a coupon, I enter into the computer the order then go back and deduct the other entre or $2.00 coupon. |
redbeard
New member
Username: redbeard
Post Number: 107
Registered: 09-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
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jammie, I must admit that I am surprised at what you must go thru to enter your sales. A question for other servers - do you go thru this process as well?
I cerrtainly expect coupon discounts to be shown on the bill, but I am surprised that server's "total sales" are tracked separately from "acutal sales".
RedBeard
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jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 941
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 08:40 pm: |
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Redbeard, its not that difficult, with those new fangled gizmos computers its easily tracked. We have a cash out screen for employees, I enter the transaction like any other then at cash out I hit the employee meal button swipe the card for the employee and it reflects a zero balance. With our Micros system we all have cards almost like a credit card, we use to punch in and out. For employees that use a terminal for taking cash we must swipe for every transaction. Then by magic ( I assume I'm not a coputer wiz ) it appears on our daily report. Is shows charge card tips, how much you should have in your drawer, any discounts, actual sales, tax and everything else. The report is about 2 feet long. I guess I'm making it sound more complicated than it is. You have to admitt though your actual sales and total sales are really two differnt totals. |
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