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goldenfoxx
New member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:06 am: | 
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Question for everyone. Do you tip out your kitchen staff? I discovered a different board the other day and there was alot of comments about tipping the cooks. I was wondering whether this was true of any restraunts out there?
Just a personal story; the cooks at my restaurant put up a tip jar on expo about mid december. They were saying that the waiters were making too much money and not sharing it with the cooks (can of worms...wont even go into the discussions we had but luckily I had this board to draw lines of reasoning from...thank you all).
We eventually agreed that everytime I made a mistake on my checks, I would put a dollar in the tip jar and every time the cooks made a mistake, I would take out a dollar in the tip jar. I was the only server who went up for this idea.
Unfortunatly for the cooks, I have about $63 in IOUs that the cooks owe me at last counting. I thought that was pretty funny. Especially when the jar just happened to disappear last week. Oh well, makes a good story. |
jammie
New member
Username: jammie
Post Number: 280
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 07:51 am: |
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goldenfoxx, that is pretty funny. I know the usual attitude is the kitchen never screws up.Somehow it always has to be the servers fault.
My last job we had to tip out 3%,of sales, the dishwasher and cook split 2% of it. I had never encountered tippng out a cook before.The dishwasher was also the busser, and got a larger portion of the tip out.
I worked with one cook all of the time, It was just her and I, no server, or dishwasher. We both did all tasks. she would run food, If I were in the back washing dishes she would take care of the bar. It worked out rather nice for us. This situation evolved over the years. I would tip her depending on how much I made between $25-$50 a shift.This is a little differnt from most working enviorments.
For other shifts and employees they did have to tip out the kitchen. I found that to be rather odd. |
nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
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This is what is on the DOL's website @ dol.gov:
Tip Pooling: The requirement that an employee must retain all tips does not preclude tip splitting or pooling arrangements among employees who customarily and regularly receive tips, such as waiters, waitresses, bellhops, counter personnel (who serve customers), busboys/girls and service bartenders. Tipped employees may not be required to share their tips with employees who have not customarily and regularly participated in tip pooling arrangements, such as dishwashers, cooks, chefs, and janitors. Only those tips that are in excess of tips used for the tip credit may be taken for a pool. Tipped employees cannot be required to contribute a greater percentage of their tips than is customary and reasonable.
I think that's pretty straitforward. Am I being like George and interpreting it my own way? |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 375
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 01:29 pm: |
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Just a interesting question I would love for nuvola to answer. Since you have taken the time to read up on these laws concerning tips the question I pose is:
Does Fact Sheet #15, Tipped employees under the Fair Labor Standards Act actually state that an employer may require a tipped employee to share his tips?
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nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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No, it doesn't, and I know that. I specifically took notice of that because my former employer was trying to take control of my tips.
it says:
Requirements
If an employer elects to use the tip credit provision the employer must:
.......
3) Allow the tipped employee to retain all tips, whether or not the employer elects to take a tip credit for tips received, except to the extent the employee participates in a valid tip pooling arrangement.
.......
Retention of Tips: The law forbids any arrangement between the employer and the tipped employee whereby any part of the tip received becomes the property of the employer. A tip is the sole property of the tipped employee. Where an employer does not strictly observe the tip credit provisions of the Act, no tip credit may be claimed and the employees are entitled to receive the full cash minimum wage, in addition to retaining tips they may\should have received.
....among other things. I used a lot of this information against my employer, but then CaliforniaLaw comes out and says certain laws override these. I'm not a lawyer or a law student, but tend to think along the same lines as George does when interpreting some of these laws he cites. I think the DOL's website is very specific and straitforward about these rules. That's why I threw them in my employer's face. I haven't found any state laws (for my state) that say anything that overrides these laws, so I figured that these stand firm. |
californialaw
New member
Username: californialaw
Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 08:44 am: |
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Actually, it depends on where you live. There has been a common reluctance on most employers to implement coerced "compulsory" pooling of tips in most states. However, thats not to say that the FLSA or individual state laws which pretty much exist across the board, don't expressly allow or disallow, rather make the action merely permissable. But remember, the DOL is merely an adminstrative agency. Their regulations are merely interpretations that are usually followed by case law, however, sometimes are not. It seems uniform across the board that the DOL's position on tips has been a bit weak to say the best. There is truly no clairity on the issue and its purpose and limitations are viewed on a case by case basis. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 378
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 01:38 pm: |
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I think there is a lot of clarity on the issue when one reads the regulations. I hate to repeat myself again but CFR531.40 clearly states that the transfer of one employee's property to another is to be voluntary. Allowing employer required tip pooling undeniably contradicts this regulation for when employers are allowed to require tip pooling they may transfer an employees money to another without the consent of the employee. How can this regulation be interpreted as it is permissable for an employer to tranfer part of an employees property, his tips, to a third party against his will and without his consent? This law is pretty straight forward just like nuvola stated. Employer required tip pooling, permissable? Employer required tip pooling is clearly prohibitted according to this regulation. I have yet to read any regulation which even slightly suggests that employers may require tip pooling. It is only permissable because of the court's errant rulings. Again I will be happy to explain the errors of each and every court decision which has unjustly allowed employer required tip pooling. The truth is always easy to prove. |
californialaw
New member
Username: californialaw
Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 08:07 pm: |
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George,
Trust me I can read. What you are misinterpreting is that employer mandated tip pooling is permissable within the color of the FLSA which is re-interpreted under CFR 531.40. Therefore, what is permissable, can clearly be required. Like I said over and over again, my position is that the rulings are clearly derived from assumptions and not on factual evidence. The courts have ruled that since the customers intentions can not be exactly defined, it is reasonable to believe that the customer intended to tip collective service. Although, as I have always held, I believe this is an errant and misguided decision based on personal prediliction and squashing the rights of the ordinary working individuals. I have sought different avenues of appeal on this issue, primarily conversion, private nuisance etc. However, I fully understand that even though I see a clear and present proof that there is foul on the issue, I know reasonably that it can not be fair for the other individuals who did provide an indirect service which helped to better serve patrons. Alas, it is a very sensitive issue on all sides of the fence. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 379
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 01:53 pm: |
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Where is it permissable within the color of the FLSA. It sounds like you are just repeating something a judge may have stated to support his decision. This is not substantiating evidence at all that employer required tip pooling is permissable. Come on, within the color of the FLSA. What does that mean?
Tipped employees under the fair labor standards act states that an employer must allow the tipped employee to retain all tips. Requiring that an employee not retain all his tips but instead must give them over to a tip pool does not match with the color explaining that an employer must allow the tipped employee to "retain" all tips. Retain is defined as to keep in one's possession or for ones use. The tips collected in an employer required tip pooling arrangement are not for the tipped employee's use or he would be able to determine how they are used. The tips collected in an employer required tip pool are not for the tipped employee's use or he would be able to determine for himself if his tips were to be used for a tip pool. It is not fair to many individuals who provide service which helped to better serve patrons to not receive a tip from customers but that's the customer's right. Many workers across this nation do not receive tips. I think it's clear that tips do not have to be given for any service. |
goldenfoxx
New member
Username: goldenfoxx
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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George,
I think by the letter of the law you may very well be right. Its hard to say what the customers intention is when they leave a tip. But am I gonna grill the customer and ask them "So how were those martinis? How much of this tip should go to the bartender? How clean was the table? Do you feel your dishes were cleaned up fast enough? How much do you want to go to the busser? Was the food hot enough for you? Do you think the food runner did a good job? How much would you like me to give him?" Way too much hassel. Tipping is already pretty awkward for many people. This would magnify the awkwardness many times.
And speaking as an service industry employee, I DONT CARE. I quite frankly do not want to bus my own tables, I dont want to make my drinks when Im busy and I certainly dont want to go to the front of the restaurant and say "OK, whose next" I appreciate the service that is done for me by the busser, the bartender and the hostess. Can it be done without these positions? Sure. Just look at your average german restaurant. But I am willing to tip out because in the end I make MORE money, not less.
Disclaimer: this is baring californialaws 43% tip out, which is ridicuouly high and verges on extortion. No-one should expect more tips from a food server than the amount they are enhancing of the tip or the quanity of sales a food server should bring in.
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nuvola09
New member
Username: nuvola09
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:09 am: |
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californialaw said: "I know reasonably that it can not be fair for the other individuals who did provide an indirect service which helped to better serve patrons."
While I somewhat agree with this, I have yet to find a restaurant that pays bussers and hostesses less than minimum wage. Us servers, on the other hand, often get voided checks worth $0 and litterally live on tips. I always tip out my support staff, but I think that it should mostly be at our discretion.
My other point to bring up is that my "tip pool" that I was being forced into at the Indian restaurant I worked at had nothing to do with bussers or runners, etc. They refused to hire those sorts of people, trying to save as much money as possible and milk us for our $3/hour pay. Plus, they took 2% of our sales and had us pay it back to the owners at the end of the night. Anyway, the tip pool they tried to force me into was the whole waitstaff waiting on our own tables in our own sections, working under one ID in the computer (so even at the end of the night, you could not tell who did what in sales or tips) and then shoving all the money and credit card slips into a single folder. Then the paperwork was done by the senior waitress, then the money was (supposedly) evenly divided at the end of the night. As if that is not bad enough, about a week before they laid us all off by closing our restaurant, the senior waitress (a very sweet and honest girl from Morocco) told me and our other American waitress that the practice of pooling tips was also so that the tips could be distributed by a sort of caste system. The senior waitress automatically got more, the next one down got a little less, the next one down got a little less, and so on. This sent me over the edge, and that is TRULY a violation of everything the DOL has on their website, on their facts sheets and their laws.
In your opinions (especially californialaw's), how can this be legal and permitted from the DOL's apparent view? They do make several refferences to bus boys and hosts, but we had none of those. Our employer was basically taking control of our tips to distribute them amongst the waitstaff the way he saw fit. And it was so that he could give his senior employees more responcibility (and more work) without having to compensate them out of his own pocket. How is that legal?
goldenfoxx said: "Can it be done without these positions? Sure. Just look at your average german restaurant."
And Indian restaurants. And by the way, we didn't always function so well because we didn't have those extra people. It was crazy and understaffed. |
george
New member
Username: george
Post Number: 380
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 01:54 pm: |
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Californialaw, what you are missing is that who ever this judge was that stated tip pooling is permisable within the color of the FLSA was making this up. If it is permissable then this judge who I beleive you are quoting could have explained exactly what wording is used to substantiate that employer required tip pooling is permissable under the FLSA. Instead of citing language from the FLSA, this Judge simply stated that the FLSA indicates that employer required tip pooling is permissable. The biggest concern is why didn't the lawyers representing the tipped employee question this unsubstantiated finding? Why have so many lawyers let judges get away with such unjust and law contravening judgements? Are judges and lawyers above the law? Do judges and lawyers have some kind of pact where they won't interfere in the corrupt dealings of another?
Federal laws do not state that a tip becomes the property of the person to whom it is intended. Federal laws clearly state that a tip becomes the property of the person to whom it is presented.
Anyone could claim that a customer intended to tip them. Interpreting tips as becoming the property of the person to whom they are intended does nothing to protect the public from fraud. Such an interpretation leaves every tip given up to the courts to sort out who the tip is inended for. Possession on the other hand is said to be 9/10's of the law, therefore physically putting a tip into the possession of an individual is what makes that tip the individual's property not the intent of the customer. The courts should not be ruling that tips put into the posssession of an individual should be taken away from that individual and given to others who the customer clearly did not put a tip into the possession of.
If a customer does not make an effort to tip an employee it's his own fault and no protection is necessary.
The courts are blatantly relying on the fact that a customer's intent cannot be exactly defined. Their actions can be defined by who is in possession of the tip. The courts, however, seem intent on viewing who tips belong to as undefined dispite federal laws that define them clearly as the property of the tipped employee. Is it not clear what they are doing? That which is a tip is defined as the sole property of the tipped employee. That which is defined as amounts not received as tips are defined as the property of the employer. Please see CFR 531.55, Examples of amounts not received as tips.
Tips are defined as a sum presented in recognition of some service or where the customer has made his intent defined by his actions.
The courts, however, have rendered judgements ruling that tips are not defind by the customer's actions and therefore such tips are not presented in recognition of some service. Under such an interpretation by the courts tips are the property of the employer for they have clearly defined tips as that which are not tips. The courts have undeniably contravened the federal law which states that an employer must allow the tipped employee to retain all tips and ruled that tips are not the property of the tipped employee on the unsupported grounds that they have not been given in recognition of some service, therefore tips are instead the property of the employer. This is not a ruling this is theft. |
carol
New member
Username: carol
Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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Hi..Gee, I'm so glad I live in Las Vegas. Cooks are not considered tipped employees by our friends, the IRS. In fact, we don't even GIVE money to the bus people; we buy chips (we don't pay tax on that money). Then when the bus people turn in the chips for real money, they pay the tax on it...Carol |
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